Handling Spacies

[WhiteCrow]

I had my first run in with a technical Fox yesterday and oooh boy it was not pretty. Wave shine>dash attack>usmash, wave shine>usmash>uair, dash dancing out of wave shines, up throw>uair, and oh my god the drill shine shield pressure was unreal. There was a period where I was just standing there, dumbfounded at his approaches. He was playing footsie with friggin wave shines. I've seen it in videos but I've never fought it.

I've read that Zelda has a solid matchup against Fox in PM, but I got Ko'd so fast in our first set. I had no idea how to deal with nair cross ups on my shield, I didn't know when/how to di up-throw, and I haven't missed that many techs since I picked up the damn game. Said Fox has become my new training partner. How do you deal with crazy fast spacies? As Zelda, how do I set the pace of the match for my defensive style of play?

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, long term lurker, first time poster.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

I had my first run in with a technical Fox yesterday and oooh boy it was not pretty. Wave shine>dash attack>usmash, wave shine>usmash>uair, dash dancing out of wave shines, up throw>uair, and oh my god the drill shine shield pressure was unreal. There was a period where I was just standing there, dumbfounded at his approaches. He was playing footsie with friggin wave shines. I've seen it in videos but I've never fought it.

I've read that Zelda has a solid matchup against Fox in PM, but I got Ko'd so fast in our first set. I had no idea how to deal with nair cross ups on my shield, I didn't know when/how to di up-throw, and I haven't missed that many techs since I picked up the damn game. Said Fox has become my new training partner. How do you deal with crazy fast spacies? As Zelda, how do I set the pace of the match for my defensive style of play?

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, long term lurker, first time poster.

Hi there White Crow it's nice to meet you. You're right that Zelda can be a good matchup for spacies, but it can be really tough if the player has a good mastery of the character. I would say the first step and one of the most important things is getting used to the sheer speed increase. As I'm sure you're well aware Zelda moves pretty slow, so encountering a fast fox will probably feel like he is running circles around you. Once you play it enough though (and get over the shock lol) you'll start to notice things and be able to predict what the fox is going to do which is good because this is where Zelda really shines. Her punish game once started against the spacies is unreal. The problem is catching them. If possible you want to take them to a stage with minimal platform interference. This will make it possible to land 0-death combos even with good DI from your opponent. If you can safely get out a Din's, that may help you slow the Fox down. Use it to limit how he can approach you. You'll probably have to knock him away before you can safely place one. Back throw, Nayru's, f-smash, and a mix up of teleport dashing are all viable options to help you accomplish this. The Din's isn't necessarily required, but it may make the next step easier. What you are really setting up for is catching him with a grab. This is where it gets fun.*** You can chain grab/throw the Fox for quite awhile depending on how he DI's. You're going to want to use Up-throw. I believe for up to around 30 percent you can chain grab him no matter how he DIs (unless he takes you to the edge which still leaves you in a great position). At this/some point if he chooses to input no DI and goes straight up you won't be able to regrab him. That's okay though because you can catch him with an up-smash. If he continues to apply no DI, keep up-smashing. If he DIs left or right it will take longer for him to get out of hitstun allowing you to regrab him. Continue with an up-throw. Also on the grabs you may want to use a jump grab (X or Y and immediately grab) rather than a running grab. Once he gets close to around 80% he will start to get to far away to continue the combo and for the finishing blow. Depending on where he is, you are going to want to nail him with a f-air or b-air (critical sweet spot if possible). That should be enough to finish him but if not he'll at least be way off stage. Head towards the edge and if it is possible for him to recover with his illusion place a Din's where appropriate to block that option. If he comes back with fire-fox you've got him with a F-Smash (charge it if you feel so inclined lol). You could also choose to use the finisher way before he gets that high in percentage and probably gimp him. That's partially up to you and if DI allows him to get over the edge in which case you just lightning kick him. So that's a way to punish him but most likely you will need to be fending off his approaches and dealing with his pressure.

If he gets you in your shield try to stay calm lol. If you are playing the Full set version, you can just hold the c-stick either left or right and you will automatically roll the first frame that it is possible once shield stun wears off. Chances are your opponent will slip up at some point. Just be careful because he may eventually come to expect the roll and come up with a way to punish it. You can always also use some SDI while in the shield to increase the chance of him missing you allowing you to escape or potentially get a grab off. Sometimes you can shield grab him but it is dangerous as Zelda's grab comes out pretty slowly.

As far as escaping from his combos try to experiment with different directions of DI to throw him off especially on the dash attack hit. If you have enough time to jump you can use a love jump to escape the pressure. Simply jump as soon as you can during hitstun and immediately use Nayru's. You should fly up. It should work against his up-throw up-air combo but if you can't seem to get it to work you can always SDI (maybe even ASDI) on the first hit of up-air to avoid the killing blow. Hope that helps, and good luck!

***That Zelda combo was performed on Wolf so the percentages may vary somewhat but some form of it should still be pretty effective.

 

[Arcalyth]

While in a vacuum the matchup is fairly even, in reality playing against a good Fox is hard. Zelda has to play much more consciously and deliberately than Fox to stay on par with him. However, if you can beat Fox's neutral game just once, you can pretty much 0-death him. The problem that neutral is where Fox is strongest and where Zelda is weakest, making this a very polarizing (and fun, imo!) matchup. Farore's Wind will make your life easier, but only if you teleport patiently and not predictably. Din's Fire should absolutely never be used in neutral. Knock Fox FAR away before trying to set up a trap. Grabs are the endgame. Upsmash is your best friend.

You want to be spacing his SHFFL nair in order to avoid getting hit. Staying outside of that range will cover all of Fox's approach options. Aerial Nayru's, especially B-Reversed, helps cover that range, as well as ftilt and jab. Of course you should be trying to maintain positional advantage as much as possible. This is a matchup where Zelda must constantly be on the move. Use Farore's Wind.

Here's KirbyKaze's excellent guide on surviving uthrow>uair: http://smashboards.com/threads/how-to-sdi-foxs-u-throw-u-air-and-not-die.217426/
I'm pretty sure you can also just Love Jump out of the upthrow before he can hit you with uair.

I like using Farore's Wind OOS to mitigate shield pressure, but be mindful that the opening hitbox doesn't come out until frame 7.
Usmash OOS is godlike (frame 4! combos into everything!)

Zelda excels at reversals and stuffing careless approaches. Scrubby Foxes are no match for Zelda. A good Fox will probably stop approaching you and start laser weaving instead. Nayru's Love won't do you a whole lot of good against it but if used sparingly it can probably bait the Fox into approaching again. Mix up your followup and momentum.

Also consider edgeguarding by teleporting to the ledge.

That's about all I've got that WhiteLightnin didn't already say

 

[Justbngoode]

Personally I find that Zelda vs Fox to be one of the funnest matchups that we currently have, and a lot of that has to do with fox's weight. Due to fox's absurd heaviness, we can zero to death him relatively consistently if our combo game is good.
Zelda feels like one of the few characters that could have even+ matchups on spacies, which really helps us take down what 80% of this community already is. My guess for the matchup is a 60-40 in our favor, which is pretty sweet.

Some things that can help in the matchup:
- Double up-smash at 0% (yes that's an option) to aerial
- Uthrow to aerial
- Uthrow CG
- Backthrow killing even earlier (Space animal weight brings them into a gimp trajectory)
- Getting two lightning kicks in a row if they DI towards you
- Jumping out of Uthrow->Uair to a Dair

Pretty much during this match you are going to be baiting fox out and since they are fox, they are going to want to approach, so just play defensively.
If they try and laser camp you, just set up dins and limit their options even further.
Zelda is a slow character, but your superior defensive game can secure your victory against StarFox's finest.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

Personally I find that Zelda vs Fox to be one of the funnest matchups that we currently have, and a lot of that has to do with fox's weight. Due to fox's absurd heaviness, we can zero to death him relatively consistently if our combo game is good.
Zelda feels like one of the few characters that could have even+ matchups on spacies, which really helps us take down what 80% of this community already is. My guess for the matchup is a 60-40 in our favor, which is pretty sweet.

Some things that can help in the matchup:
- Double up-smash at 0% (yes that's an option) to aerial
- Uthrow to aerial
- Uthrow CG
- Backthrow killing even earlier (Space animal weight brings them into a gimp trajectory)
- Getting two lightning kicks in a row if they DI towards you
- Jumping out of Uthrow->Uair to a Dair

Pretty much during this match you are going to be baiting fox out and since they are fox, they are going to want to approach, so just play defensively.
If they try and laser camp you, just set up dins and limit their options even further.
Zelda is a slow character, but your superior defensive game can secure your victory against StarFox's finest.

It is a good matchup for us, but there are two main hurdles. First, most of the tournament stages have platforms so that makes it a lot harder to chain grab. Second, we have to catch him which is not always easy. lol I like the options you gave. Also, you may already know this, but you can do way more than just two up-smashes starting at 0%.

 

[jtm94]

You can get 2 up smashes on Roy at 0%, you can get like 4 on Fox and even more on Falco.

Don't play impatiently is the biggest thing. MAKE him approach. Don't be afraid to play it SUPER safe. Sit back, dash dance(yes her dash dance is usable) and wait for a punish(grab, usmash, nayru's, ftilt).

 

[WhiteCrow]

Woah! Thank you everyone for the amazing advice. I started practicing uthrow chain grabs in training mode on all of the spacies to figure out the percents. Got my first zero-to-death combo on said fox yesterday on final destination :D

Is it a bad thing that I like pokemon stadium so much? Utilit can hit through the platforms, the platforms lead to each tech chases, different stages for chain grabs and weird din positioning. I found out that it has a low ceiling and short walls... so should I ban it against fox? What stages should I ban/counter pic against spacies in general? Also, if I only have enough time to edge guard spacies with a single din, where should I put it so that I don't aid their recovery, while still setting up thunder toes?

 

[Rizner]

Woah! Thank you everyone for the amazing advice. I started practicing uthrow chain grabs in training mode on all of the spacies to figure out the percents. Got my first zero-to-death combo on said fox yesterday on final destination :D

Is it a bad thing that I like pokemon stadium so much? Utilit can hit through the platforms, the platforms lead to each tech chases, different stages for chain grabs and weird din positioning. I found out that it has a low ceiling and short walls... so should I ban it against fox? What stages should I ban/counter pic against spacies in general? Also, if I only have enough time to edge guard spacies with a single din, where should I put it so that I don't aid their recovery, while still setting up thunder toes?

Depends on where they're at. If they're recovering from high, I like to put them about even with the side of the stage just off of it to stop their side b approach, and will generally place them a little below it if they're using up-b. Sometimes it'll work and hit em, but sometimes their up-b will power through the fire so I often try to have a third one covering their immediate ledge options that's a little above the stages edge. Basically you don't want it far out enough that if they hit it you can't follow up because it was too low, because if they run into it they likely wouldn't have made it anyways.
The reason I play it this way is because I like a fox when he's on the edge. You have a couple fireballs out there which you can keep refreshing, and then sometimes get a punish on their getup and apply constant pressure for a bit.

You can also try to hit them as they're falling way outside of the stage range (like hit their body before they side-b or up-b) which could go 50/50 based on where on their body it hits and how they DI the hit, so I wouldn't suggest that.

 

[Neloht]

I find that a falco who finds the approach because they know you are going to shield and so they nair and fall behind you to try to make you pull out the grab. Do a dsmash comes out on frame 2 (obviously after coming out of shield frames) and if they are right behind you the first hitbox hits and you get the second hit as well. They will try to be close as well so they can hit with shine after L-cancel landing.

Many falco players try to bait a grab from zelda and if you aren't blocking before the nair just neutral-A works as well because it takes 7 frames for hit box and has a lot of reach

 

[BJN39]

I find that a falco who finds the approach because they know you are going to shield and so they nair and fall behind you to try to make you pull out the grab. Do a dsmash comes out on frame 2 (obviously after coming out of shield frames) and if they are right behind you the first hitbox hits and you get the second hit as well. They will try to be close as well so they can hit with shine after L-cancel landing.

Many falco players try to bait a grab from zelda and if you aren't blocking before the nair just neutral-A works as well because it takes 7 frames for hit box and has a lot of reach

^ the bolded part.

Idk where you got that number if you're talking about a Zelda dsmash, it hits on frame 4.

 

[Neloht]

@ BJN39 , Sorry about that. I got the start up frames instead of hit box. Thanks for the correction

Startup animation is 2 frames.
Max smash charge is 61 frames.
Frame Total: 34
Hitboxes: Frames 3-5, 10-13
IASA: Frame 31
Damage: 12, 13

 

[BJN39]

@ BJN39 , Sorry about that. I got the start up frames instead of hit box. Thanks for the correction

Startup animation is 2 frames.
Max smash charge is 61 frames.
Frame Total: 34
Hitboxes: Frames 3-5, 10-13
IASA: Frame 31
Damage: 12, 13

Actually, those actual movement numbers are all off by a frame. > , > the charge length, and charge start should be right though.

DSmash hits on frames 4-14 (from the start, not the charging frame. And yes, all the way around) and its IASA is on 32. At least, that's melee's IASA, so I don't see a reason why it wouldn't be.

EDIT; I got these numbers from an old 2.1 thread, but dsmash has never been touched since then. So unless something was unmentioned, this data should be right. I'm sorry if I missed something and you are actually right now. ^ ^ I'd hate to spread misinformation.

 

[Neloht]

Actually, those actual movement numbers are all off by a frame. > , > the charge length, and charge start should be right though.

DSmash hits on frames 4-14 (from the start, not the charging frame. And yes, all the way around) and its IASA is on 32. At least, that's melee's IASA, so I don't see a reason why it wouldn't be.

EDIT; I got these numbers from an old 2.1 thread, but dsmash has never been touched since then. So unless something was unmentioned, this data should be right. I'm sorry if I missed something and you are actually right now. ^ ^ I'd hate to spread misinformation.

I would hate to spread misinformation as well and the frame data I got mine from is from 2.6 from this thread (the thread itself says it is outdated but it is the most recent frame information that I could find):
http://smashboards.com/threads/zelda-hitboxes-and-frame-data.339419/

Never the less, frames are important but the point I was trying to make was that it is zelda's fastest option and helps to keep from getting frame trapped by spacies.

 

[BJN39]

Never the less, frames are important but the point I was trying to make was that it is zelda's fastest option and helps to keep from getting frame trapped by spacies.

Yes, definitely.