bc1910
Smash Lord
So Greninja's Down Throw, previously one of the saddest Dthrows in the game it has to be said, got a 7 frame reduction on its ending lag in patch 1.10. Its damage was reduced from 6% to 5%, which also reduces its knockback slightly. This allows Dthrow to true combo into certain moves, something it categorically could not do before. I thought I'd share a breakdown of my findings so far.
Some disclaimers:
First off, Dthrow does not true combo or frame trap anything at high % if the opponent DIs away. Annoying, but it is what it is. You can at least do a DI mixup between Dthrow and Fthrow; if they DI away and you Fthrow, they put themselves in a worse position for recovering and can be edgeguarded more easily.
Now, at low %, I could not find any true combos on Mario. However on fast fallers, there is a small percent window where Dthrow can true combo into jab. This gives you a free ~14% from a throw if you use the rapid jab. Not that useful because Uthrow Uair is generally better but it's there.
However what you can do at low % is go for footstool combos such as this one. From what I can tell these are not true combos; the opponent can double jump away, airdodge, or even just drift away. Greninja's frame advantage is not high enough. The combos are cool though, and could catch someone off guard every now and then.
High % is where things get interesting. After jab stops working on fast fallers, Dthrow does not true combo into anything until the knockback reaches the point where full jump Fair can hit the opponent. Before this, you can do stuff like Dthrow Usmash and Dthrow SH Fair, but nothing is guaranteed and jumps do not get trapped.
Buffered Dthrow from Dashgrab
If Dthrow is buffered from a dashgrab, the point where Mario starts getting hit by full hop Fair is 113%. This number is arbitrary because so many factors in a match will prevent it from ever being relevant, such as rage and staling, but I thought I'd share it anyway. So at 113%, training mode does not register Dthrow > FH Fair as a true combo because Mario still has a couple of frames to jump out. However, due to the startup of double jump and airdodging, Mario gets frame trapped into being hit with the Fair if he tries to jump out. There is nothing he can do about it. So even though training mode doesn't register it as a combo, Mario cannot jump out.
At 133% onwards, Dthrow > FH Fair will register as a true combo. This means Mario cannot jump out. When you reach even higher percents, up to about 155%, you should buffer a dash after the Dthrow before doing FH Fair. You can still frame trap jumps this way, but it's harder. You can actually frame trap jumps this way up until about 159% but you need to be insanely precise to do it, dashing for the perfect number of frames and whatnot. From around 160% onwards you will need perfect timing with a double jump to true combo the opponent with Dthrow Fair since they get launched too high, but it IS possible to true combo them if you so wish. The timing is VERY difficult. However, Uthrow starts to kill from about 160% onwards so you don't need to worry about Dthrow stuff after that.
A word about the training mode combo counter, it only works for jumping. It basically tells you at what point an opponent can't jump out of a string of hits. Greninja's Dthrow > Fair will trap jumps when the combo counter tells you, and for several frames before (due to jump startup), but the opponent can airdodge out of the combo. This makes Dthrow > Fair a 50/50 kill combo. If you read an airdodge, simply delay the Fair by a few frames. I am working on some frame traps for airdodges which allow you to throw out Fair to catch jumps, too, but I don't have much to share yet.
Standing Dthrow
In short, you can never get a true combo to register from standing Dthrow besides low % fastfaller jab stuff. However, by buffering a dash before your FH Fair at high %, you can frame trap jumps in the same way I described before. People still won't be able to jump out of the combo, which I think is really useful.
I hope some of you found this breakdown helpful. I will keep adding to this as I find more Dthrow stuff, feel free to share your findings.
Some disclaimers:
- Testing was done in training mode, meaning Greninja had no rage and his attacks had no staling or freshness bonus applied.
- Staling Dthrow does not affect its follow ups (in fact it makes them work for longer) but rage can make certain follow ups impossible.
- All tests were done on Mario.
- A bunch of characters with weird physics/weight probably won't get combo'd at all, such as Bowser and Luigi (basically people who don't get combo'd by Uthrow Uair) but I haven't tested extensively.
First off, Dthrow does not true combo or frame trap anything at high % if the opponent DIs away. Annoying, but it is what it is. You can at least do a DI mixup between Dthrow and Fthrow; if they DI away and you Fthrow, they put themselves in a worse position for recovering and can be edgeguarded more easily.
Now, at low %, I could not find any true combos on Mario. However on fast fallers, there is a small percent window where Dthrow can true combo into jab. This gives you a free ~14% from a throw if you use the rapid jab. Not that useful because Uthrow Uair is generally better but it's there.
However what you can do at low % is go for footstool combos such as this one. From what I can tell these are not true combos; the opponent can double jump away, airdodge, or even just drift away. Greninja's frame advantage is not high enough. The combos are cool though, and could catch someone off guard every now and then.
High % is where things get interesting. After jab stops working on fast fallers, Dthrow does not true combo into anything until the knockback reaches the point where full jump Fair can hit the opponent. Before this, you can do stuff like Dthrow Usmash and Dthrow SH Fair, but nothing is guaranteed and jumps do not get trapped.
Buffered Dthrow from Dashgrab
If Dthrow is buffered from a dashgrab, the point where Mario starts getting hit by full hop Fair is 113%. This number is arbitrary because so many factors in a match will prevent it from ever being relevant, such as rage and staling, but I thought I'd share it anyway. So at 113%, training mode does not register Dthrow > FH Fair as a true combo because Mario still has a couple of frames to jump out. However, due to the startup of double jump and airdodging, Mario gets frame trapped into being hit with the Fair if he tries to jump out. There is nothing he can do about it. So even though training mode doesn't register it as a combo, Mario cannot jump out.
At 133% onwards, Dthrow > FH Fair will register as a true combo. This means Mario cannot jump out. When you reach even higher percents, up to about 155%, you should buffer a dash after the Dthrow before doing FH Fair. You can still frame trap jumps this way, but it's harder. You can actually frame trap jumps this way up until about 159% but you need to be insanely precise to do it, dashing for the perfect number of frames and whatnot. From around 160% onwards you will need perfect timing with a double jump to true combo the opponent with Dthrow Fair since they get launched too high, but it IS possible to true combo them if you so wish. The timing is VERY difficult. However, Uthrow starts to kill from about 160% onwards so you don't need to worry about Dthrow stuff after that.
A word about the training mode combo counter, it only works for jumping. It basically tells you at what point an opponent can't jump out of a string of hits. Greninja's Dthrow > Fair will trap jumps when the combo counter tells you, and for several frames before (due to jump startup), but the opponent can airdodge out of the combo. This makes Dthrow > Fair a 50/50 kill combo. If you read an airdodge, simply delay the Fair by a few frames. I am working on some frame traps for airdodges which allow you to throw out Fair to catch jumps, too, but I don't have much to share yet.
Standing Dthrow
In short, you can never get a true combo to register from standing Dthrow besides low % fastfaller jab stuff. However, by buffering a dash before your FH Fair at high %, you can frame trap jumps in the same way I described before. People still won't be able to jump out of the combo, which I think is really useful.
I hope some of you found this breakdown helpful. I will keep adding to this as I find more Dthrow stuff, feel free to share your findings.
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