Grab release at edge discussion

[Wrexsoul]

Heya folks!

I've been pondering ways to set up kills with Kirby since our smashes are often pretty predictable. One thing I've noticed when playing is that a grab release from Kirby near the edge puts the enemy in a pretty awkward position. I've been thinking about ways to implement this in my games as a mixup, and figured you guys might have some thoughts on the matter. Obviously, none of these are proper combos, but with some prediction I think it's pretty nice to put the opponent in an unfavourable situation with very little time to react (unlike a proper throw). From what I've seen, most people will try to jump on reflex after getting grab released off the edge, which gives you lots of options. If they don't jump immediately, they're below you off-stage, setting us up nicely for a dair spike or bair stage-spike.As this works the best with fast fallers, I went into training and recorded some nooby videos of some possibilities. These are all when jumping back immediately, since that's what the CPU does and I don't have anyone here with me to test with.

Grab release to F-smash

Most character's second jump after grab-release pokes their head up above the edge before grabbing it, where it perfectly meets Kirby's red fluffy foot of pain.

Grab release to B-air

A mixup to the above that kills at high percent despite sending them "the wrong way". With better timing than mine, might set up a nice stage spike.

Grab release to footstool

Can probably be followed up by a D-air or Stone or something nifty and painful.

Would be cool to hear your thoughts on this - If I'm right in that it sets up kill options it could be a valuable addition to Kirby's presence.

 

[Wrexsoul]

No thoughts on this?

 

[Nickname87]

I have thoughts on this...

 

[FlipFlopMist]

No thoughts on this?

A little difficult to say anything other than "awesome!", you covered this really well and added different options, what to do after release, how the opponent might react, etc...

You even covered that some characters heads peak over the ledge after their double jump and that this only really works with fast fallers and as a mixup, I can see myself definitely working with this as it's another great way to get the edge on things.

So in short: "Awesome!" Thanks for putting in that much work writing it up and making the videos.

 

[Asdioh]

I strongly believe what we Kirbys really need to do, in order to make Kirby truly threatening, is learn to become gods at forcing people offstage, and punishing them hard for it. This is one way to do that, and I don't know what else to say about it besides what you already covered. Grab releasing at the edge is a viable option, because it puts them below you, which is a worse spot than any of his throws would put them in.

Grab releasing is just a small part of edge play though, we need to master all aspects of it. Just think about it:

-They're trying to recover high, you beat them by staying below them and grabbing/upsmashing/whatever their landing.
-They try to recover 'medium,' you beat them with Bair/Fair, possibly Dair, to keep them offstage longer.
-They try to recover low, you beat them with Bair/Dair/Stone, and likely take their stock.

Then there's actually grabbing the ledge. This part greatly requires you to pick up on the habits of the individual player, but once most characters grab the ledge, they're at a huge disadvantage. I don't believe Kirby has any 100% guaranteed "best option every time" for this, so that's why it requires you to condition your opponent.

After they grab the ledge:
-A well-spaced standing Inhale (default B) will beat ledge attack, ledge standup, and ledge jump.
-Inhaling the opposite direction will beat ledge roll.
-Standing near the ledge and shielding will beat ledge attack and ledge standup, leading to an easy grab punish. With good prediction/reaction time, it's also possible to punish ledge roll. This option probably beats ledgedrop->jumping aerial as well. If they ledge jump, they'll probably be too far out of range for you to reach them.
-Jumping near the ledge actually gives Kirby good options, because he can stay in the air longer thanks to multiple jumps. If they ledgejump or ledgedrop->aerial, you can hit them with an aerial. Ledgestanding, ledge attacking, and ledgerolling can be beaten with falling Inhale or aerials if you're precise.
-Simply standing near the ledge and getting ready to punish any ledge option (besides possibly ledgejump) with a Smash is also viable.
I often just end up spamming Nair near the ledge because it beats a lot of stuff, but there are a lot of things Kirby can do, it's something we need to delve into.

And of course, there's ledge trumping. Note that it is impossible to trump somebody off the ledge if they grab the ledge and then "immediately" do an action, such as ledgeattack or ledgeroll. However, people usually don't "immediately" do an action upon grabbing the ledge because it gets predictable. They often spend a second thinking about what option you expect least, and therefore which option they are least likely to get punished for. Also, the extra time they spend preparing to get off the ledge helps throw off the other player's timing, because it can vary every time.

The underlined part is the key though. Players will usually wait a moment before doing their ledge option, because if they always do their option ASAP, that makes the timing very easy for the other player to punish. This very thing is what makes them vulnerable to trumping. So Kirby runs off and grabs the ledge, knocking them off, and taking away their regrabbing invincibility, unless Kirby happens to hit them with an attack before they regrab.

So what do we do from a trump? Well, as far as offstage is concerned, the most obvious answer for most characters is Bair. I don't know which characters Bair is guaranteed on, if any. That's something I've been meaning to test, it's probably even more important to know than which characters get hit by the Bthrow->Bair combo. Ledgedrop->Fair is also possible, since Kirby can turn around during his aerial jumps. I haven't tested it out myself, but its hitboxes obviously stay out longer than Bair, so it may be valuable. It can't be done instantly like ledgedrop Bair can, but that might actually make it more useful, since the timing difference will disrupt the other player. In fact, any aerial can be done in any direction after trumping, so that needs more testing.

There's also the option of trumping them, and then getting back onstage to wait for them. Some characters are pretty much forced to regrab the ledge because their jumps are poor. In this instance, they don't get ledge invincibility upon regrab, so punishing them with a Dsmash, downward-angled Fsmash, Hammer, etc. is a great idea. Another amazing thing is that you can punish them with the Meteor Stone custom, leading to basically a guaranteed kill at very low percents.
Even if they don't regrab the ledge, their only other option is to jump above it, which Kirby also has tools to deal with.


So if your opponent keeps waiting to do their ledge options, you can punish by trumping them, and if your opponent gets used to you trumping them, they'll start immediately buffering their ledge option, which gets predictable and makes timing your punishes easier, etc. etc. It's all mindgames.



edit: I was rewatching one of MikeKirby's videos (I need to learn how to beat Diddy, and since I haven't played any locally, videos are the next best thing) and the exchange from 3:35 to the end of match 1 is a perfect example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIIs-MEPwz8&feature=player_detailpage#t=215
He does trump Bair twice, and the third time he guesses that Pit will buffer a ledgeroll. He was wrong in this instance, but it's still a perfect example of conditioning and setting up for kills. If he Fsmashed from right to left instead, he could have had similar coverage, but been harder to punish.

 

[Wrexsoul]

Awesome writeup, Asdioh! I like the notion of damned if they do, damned if they don't vis. ledge grabs, since they're so central for this iteration of Smash. Especially against characters who are hard to nail off-stage (Sheik, I'm looking at you) - mastering ledge control against these should really favour the matchup. That video example against Jtails' Pit was a good example - Pit can get back to the ledge from anywhere basically so off-stage gimping him isn't the most effective, but he's very vulnerable once he actually does get there. All characters with similar linear up-B's with a start-up should be especially vulnerable to this since you can predict exactly when they reach the ledge - Space animals, DIDDY, Paluthena, Zelda, Rosalina I guess, etc. One very favourable thing with going for the ledge punish is that they are locked out from actually attacking you back, which is much safer against those characters who can actually turn the tables on you off-stage.

 

[Asdioh]

To put it simply, it's the same basic concept as techchasing. If you knock someone to the ground and they miss a tech (and sometimes even if they tech) then you hold all the cards. Whether they standup, getup attack, or roll left or right, with a little bit of guessing and good reaction time, you can punish that.

Same with the ledge, if they're forced to grab the ledge, you hold all the cards. Even more so in this game than previous Smash games, because they can't just regrab the ledge to stall, regaining invincibility every time.