Ganondorf, The Last Suicide King.

[Legitimate Ted]

Ganon has been considerably buffed since Brawl (this is obvious). Flame choke, in particular, has become worlds more useful, but this seems to be the last valid suicide move available. Kirby, King Dedede, and DK all allow for escaping before death, and Bowser now dies before the opponent, allowing for recovery of some characters. Does this make Ganon mid-tier (at least) now? I use him, and the only real resistance I get is from Sonic, Link, TL, and Shulk and the Mario Bros. (+Doc Mario).

Sure it's a **** move, but it's useful, right?

EDIT: Keep forgetting about the asterisks. It's a jerk move, but it's useful.​

 

[MOI-ARI]

its a great move. What are you talking about? Just dont make it the ONLY move you use like alot of people do. XD

 

[Legitimate Ted]

Sorry, the asterisks don't really convey what I was trying to say. Edited.

 

[Conn1496]

Suicide choke is a horrible tactic anyway. Most people see it coming a mile off, Flame Choke is a poor choice for recovery tactic anyway, usually because if you're not leading, people will just take it to the face and make you SD, and overall, its only use is to end a game quickly.

As for onstage Flame Choke, that's another story altogether. You can keep an opponent chain-choked for quite a while if you're good at reads. Generally all it takes is knowing if your opponent can tech out of the D-tilt, and then there's only limited options from there, most of which aren't truly safe against Dorf. I always thought that Dorf was a good contender, but as a (*incoming lol moment*) casual player, I wouldn't really know. What I do know though is that suicide choke is totally unviable against anyone with even a slight knowledge of Ganon shenannigans.

I've only pulled this off suicide choke twice in serious matches, one didn't count because it was post timer, and the other was an accident (-and I lost because of it.). I've had more luck suicide tacticing with wiz-foot. Ganon has much better redeeming qualities than some cheap-o lame tactic that doesn't really make a lead, and that's what makes him good in my opinion.

 

[Legitimate Ted]

The way to pull the BS Flame Choke involves using it at close range to both the opponent and the stage, So if you hit, good for you, if you miss, you hit the ledge and recover from there.
I've used this in almost every match I've played with Dorf, successfully at that, and it's good for taking last stocks, especially if you've taken too much damage for anything else to be safe.

 

[Conn1496]

Yeah, but no sane player who knows Ganon will stand near enough to the edge... Atleast they don't against me. Truthfully, it's just common sense.

 

[Legitimate Ted]

Sometimes people forget, and/or attempt to horizontal edge guard. Makes for a great psych out.

 

[Conn1496]

True, though it's still not enough to make this a legitimate tactic. -again, it's only use is as a game-ender, and Ganon has enough of those as it is. -and better players? They don't make those sort of basic mistakes.

 

[Legitimate Ted]

Scenario 1: You are Ganon at 98%, with three stocks left. Your opponent is, say, Marth, fresh off the respawn platform at 0%.
You're about to die anyway, so what's better than taking another stock off Marth? Bait to edge, Flame Choke, kill you both.
Scenario 2: You are Ganon at 98%, with one stock left. Your opponent is Link, at 50% and two. There's no winning this, so go down in
style. Even though he won, make him feel dumb by Flame Choking him.

Dorf is the special case. Accept it.

 

[jahkzheng]

I'd argue that Flame Choke is just a bit more useful than it was in Brawl. It does more damage now, but it's also techable. Yeah, aerudo recoveries can now ganoncide opponents even if their not at the very edge of the stage as long as you pull back, giving the cide option more leniency, but the tactic as you're describing it was achievable in Brawl. I think if the move was still untechable, I'd agree. It's still a read game after the choke, but now there's a lot more variables and some moves beat your reaction after tech which hurts some matchups. The lift on the move now though creates some fun platform shenanigans. And the increase in damage is welcome of course. I think more than Flame Choke being better, Ganon is just better in general.

 

[Conn1496]

Scenario 1: You are Ganon at 98%, with three stocks left. Your opponent is, say, Marth, fresh off the respawn platform at 0%.
You're about to die anyway, so what's better than taking another stock off Marth? Bait to edge, Flame Choke, kill you both.
Scenario 2: You are Ganon at 98%, with one stock left. Your opponent is Link, at 50% and two. There's no winning this, so go down in
style. Even though he won, make him feel dumb by Flame Choking him.

Dorf is the special case. Accept it.

That's implying that pullbacks aren't a thing, and that non-projectile players can't just bait you into the center of the stage like you have to bait them, or just straight up take you down faster than you can pull off the tech. I've had Ganons more than enough times try to bait me for suicide chokes (While I'm Marth (I occasionally play Marth, albeit badly.), and at an advantage, no less.) and fail to an extent where they just lose the lead, it's just not a viable technique against a smart player, even against characters with no projectile. Chances are they'll space you out pretty nastily because you're attempting the same thing over and over. That's just it - it's an okay game ender, a surprise mix-up at best, but it's not exactly game-winning. The way you describe it makes it sound like it's a reliable, strong tactic, and it's just not.

-and seriously, I doubt many people feel dumb for walking into a move that wins them the game. It's no less stupid than interrupting PK Thunders by jumping into them on the rare occasion Ness needs it to recover. It's your loss, even if they go down, too. What's to feel stupid about?

Flame Choke is good as a move, but suiciding with it is far, far from what makes it a good move, and it definately doesn't dictate what makes Ganon good as a whole.

 

[Opana]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vGdZWrN7tp8

He's a talented Falcon and sponsored player. Suicides are definitely viable if used properly.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-fpnAkh13mQ

Gungnir suicides me here.

 

[The Shadow Emperor]

1. Knock your opponent far enough away so that they can't return to the stage, preferably with them on their last stock
2. Jump after them as they're exhausting their final recovery move
3. Ganoncide
4. Laugh maniacally

 

[HeavyLobster]

If it works, it works. I once landed a Ganoncide in doubles at over 150% to cap off a 3 stocks to 1 comeback. It can be predictable, and it's not too hard to avoid, but can be a devastating mixup when used intelligently.

 

[Triggerpig]

I've used ganoncides accidently on some occasions while trying to get back to the stage,(mainly if i'm trying to get back to the stage and the opponent jumps after me) but I don't really use it as a tactic, though I don't consider it an unfair move either.

I think it's a good move to have regardless of if you use it or not though, just it being there stops some opponents from standing right at the edge or jumping out after me.

 

[CannonGanon]

I don't typically Ganoncide as I'm trying to recover AND suicide. Generally I hit them off, chase after them, and when they are trying to recover in front of me to the stage, suicide them because either they air dodge and die anyway, or they get suicided. Doesn't always work but with the likes of Marth, Robin and the bunch, it usually does for me.

 

[Tino]

Ganondorf's Ganoncide is the most satisfying move in Smash Bros. history...so long as I don't recklessly end up killing myself. lol

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

I Ganoncide when I'm close enough to the edge to get back on it if I miss, and I only ever do that when my opponent has one stock left.