Ganondorf and Shield Pressure

[Coastward]

Are you tired of your opponent getting out of shield so freely? Well worry no more, as I bring you some excellent new data that can help you improve your Ganondorf!

I compiled a bunch of frame data that lists Ganondorf's shield pressure options. It's basically listing what move you can throw out after hitting a shield with a certain move, and how fast you can punish with another move. The aerials were calculated by using the hitbox frame RIGHT BEFORE l-cancelling, so it may be off for you if you don't do a frame perfect aerial but it shouldn't matter too much.

Someone moves may be 1 frame off and some may be missing the spacing tag, but all are 100% guaranateed.

OS = on shield
FH = first hit

General Shield Grab:
jab OS > jab (16 max frames of punish)
jab OS > dash attack (12 max frames of punish)
jab OS > grab (12 max frames of punish, space dependant)
jab OS > ftilt (10 max frames of punish)
jab OS > dtilt (9 max frames of punish)
jab OS > up-b (6 max frames of punish, space dependant)
jab OS > down-b (5 max frames of punish)

ftilt OS > jab (15 max frames of punish)
ftilt OS > dash attack (11 max frames of punish)
ftilt OS > grab (11 max frames of punish, space dependant)
ftilt OS > ftilt (9 max frames of punish)
ftilt OS > dtilt (8 max frames of punish)
ftilt OS > down-b (4 max frames of punish, spacing dependant)

dtilt OS > jab (9 max frames of punish)
dtilt OS > dash attack (5 max frames of punish)
dtilt OS > ftilt (3 max frames of punish)
dtilt OS > dtilt (2 max frames of punish)

FH nair OS > jab (22 max frames of punish)
FH nair OS > dash attack (18 max frames of punish)
FH nair OS > grab (18 max frames of punish, space dependant)
FH nair OS > ftilt (16 max frames of punish)
FH nair OS > dtilt (15 max frames of punish)
FH nair OS > up-b (12 max frames of punish, space dependant)
FH nair OS > down-b (11 max frames of punish)
FH nair OS > FH dsmash (6 max frames of punish)
FH nair OS > side-b (6 max frames of punish, space dependant)
FH nair OS > fsmash (5 max frames of punish)

uair OS > jab (23 max frames of punish)
uair OS > dash attack (18 max frames of punish)
uair OS > grab (18 max frames of punish, space dependant)
uair OS > ftilt (17 max frames of punish)
uair OS > dtilt (16 max frames of punish)
uair OS > up-b (13 max frames of punish, space dependant)
uair OS > down-b (12 max frames of punish)
uair OS > FH dsmash (7 max frames of punish)
uair OS > side-b (7 max frames of punish, space dependant)
uair OS > fsmash (6 max frames of punish)

dair OS > jab (22 max frames of punish, space dependant)
dair OS > dash attack (18 max frames of punish)
dair OS > grab (18 max frames, space dependant)
dair OS > ftilt (16 max frames of punish)
dair OS > dtilt (15 max frames of punish)
dair OS > up-b (15 max frames of punish, space dependant)
dair OS > down-b (11 max frames of punish)
dair OS > FH dsmash (6 max frames of punish)
dair OS > side-b (5 max frames of punish, space dependant)
dair OS > fsmash (5 max frames of punish)

bair OS > pivot jab (23 max frames of punish)
bair OS > dash attack (20 max frames of punish)
bair OS > pivot grab (19 frames of punish, space dependant)
bair OS > ftilt (18 max frames of punish)
bair OS > pivot dtilt (16 max frames of punish)
bair OS > up-b (15 max frames of punish, space dependant)
bair OS > down-b (13 max frames of punish)
bair OS > side-b (8 max frames of punish, space dependant)
bair OS > pivot FH dsmash (7 max frames of punish)
bair OS > fsmash (7 max frames of punish)

uair OS > jab (23 max frames of punish)
uair OS > dash attack (18 max frames of punish)
uair OS > ftilt (17 max frames of punish)
uair OS > dtilt (16 max frames of punish)
uair OS > up-b (13 max frames of punish, space dependant)
uair OS > down-b (12 max frames of punish)
uair OS > FH dsmash (7 max frames of punish)
uair OS > side-b (7 max frames of punish, space dependant)
uair OS > fsmash (6 max frames of punish)

side-b OS > jab (20 max frames of punish, space dependant)
side-b OS > dash attack (16 max frames of punish)
side-b OS > ftilt (14 max frames of punish)
side-b OS > dtilt (13 max frames of punish)
side-b OS > up-b (10 max frames of punish, space dependant)
side-b OS > down-b (9 max frames of punish, VERY space dependant)
side-b OS > FH dsmash (4 max frames of punish)

Bowser Shield Grab (40 frames)
jab OS > jab (28 max frames of punish)
jab OS > dash attack (24 max frames of punish)
jab OS > grab (24 max frames of punish, space dependant)
jab OS > ftilt (22 max frames of punish)
jab OS > dtilt (21 max frames of punish)
jab OS > up-b (18 max frames of punish, space dependant)
jab OS > down-b (17 max frames of punish)
jab OS > run-up usmash (5 max frames of punish, space dependant)

ftilt OS > jab (27 max frames of punish)
ftilt OS > dash attack (23 max frames of punish)
ftilt OS > grab (23 max frames of punish, space dependant)
ftilt OS > ftilt (21 max frames of punish)
ftilt OS > dtilt (20 max frames of punish)
ftilt OS > down-b (16 max frames of punish, spacing dependant)
ftilt OS > run-up usmash (4 max frames of punish)

dtilt OS > jab (21 max frames of punish)
dtilt OS > dash attack (17 max frames of punish)
dtilt OS > ftilt (15 max frames of punish)
dtilt OS > dashgrab (14 max frames of punish)
dtilt OS > dtilt (14 max frames of punish)

FH nair OS > jab (30 max frames of punish)
FH nair OS > dash attack (26 max frames of punish)
FH nair OS > grab (26 max frames of punish, space dependant)
FH nair OS > ftilt (24 max frames of punish)
FH nair OS > dtilt (23 max frames of punish)
FH nair OS > up-b (20 max frames of punish, space dependant)
FH nair OS > down-b (19 max frames of punish)
FH nair OS > FH dsmash (14 max frames of punish)
FH nair OS > side-b (14 max frames of punish, space dependant)
FH nair OS > fsmash (13 max frames of punish)
FH nair OS > run-up usmash (7 max frames of punish)

fair OS > jab (33 max frames of punish)
fair OS > dash attack (29 max frames of punish)
fair OS > ftilt (27 max frames of punish)
fair OS > dtilt (26 max frames of punish)
fair OS > up-b (23 max frames of punish, space dependant)
fair OS > down-b (22 max frames of punish)
fair OS > FH dsmash (17 max frames of punish)
fair OS > side-b (17 max frames of punish, space dependant)
fair OS > fsmash (16 max frames of punish)
fair OS > run-up usmash (10 max frames of punish)

dair OS > jab (32 max frames of punish, space dependant)
dair OS > dash attack (28 max frames of punish)
dair OS > grab (28 max frames, space dependant)
dair OS > ftilt (26 max frames of punish)
dair OS > dtilt (25 max frames of punish)
dair OS > up-b (22 max frames of punish, space dependant)
dair OS > down-b (21 max frames of punish)
dair OS > FH dsmash (16 max frames of punish)
dair OS > side-b (15 max frames of punish, space dependant)
dair OS > fsmash (15 max frames of punish)
dair OS > run-up usmash (8 max frames of punish)

bair OS > pivot jab (34 max frames of punish)
bair OS > dash attack (30 max frames of punish)
bair OS > pivot grab (29 frames of punish, space dependant)
bair OS > ftilt (28 max frames of punish)
bair OS > pivot dtilt (26 max frames of punish)
bair OS > up-b (24 max frames of punish, space dependant)
bair OS > down-b (23 max frames of punish)
bair OS > side-b (18 max frames of punish, space dependant)
bair OS > fsmash (17 max frames of punish)
bair OS > pivot FH dsmash (16 max frames of punish)
bair OS > run-up usmash (10 max frames of punish)

uair OS > jab (33 max frames of punish)
uair OS > dash attack (29 max frames of punish)
uair OS > ftilt (27 max frames of punish)
uair OS > dtilt (26 max frames of punish)
uair OS > up-b (23 max frames of punish, space dependant)
uair OS > down-b (22 max frames of punish)
uair OS > FH dsmash (17 max frames of punish)
uair OS > side-b (17 max frames of punish, space dependant)
uair OS > fsmash (16 max frames of punish)
uair OS > run-up usmash (10 max frames of punish)

side-b OS > jab (30 max frames of punish, space dependant)
side-b OS > dash attack (26 max frames of punish)
side-b OS > ftilt (24 max frames of punish)
side-b OS > dtilt (23 max frames of punish)
side-b OS > up-b (20 max frames of punish, space dependant)
side-b OS > down-b (19 max frames of punish, VERY space dependant)
side-b OS > FH dsmash (14 max frames of punish)
side-b OS > run-up usmash (7 max frames of punish)

Link/Young Link Shield Grab (11 frames)
FH nair OS > jab (3 max frames of punish)

fair OS > jab (6 max frames of punish)
fair OS > dash attack (2 max frames of punish)
fair OS > grab (2 max frames of punish)

dair OS > jab (6 max frames of punish, space dependant)
dair OS > dash attack (3 max frames of punish, space dependant)
dair OS > grab (3 max frames, space dependant)

bair OS > pivot jab (4 max frames of punish)
bair OS > dash attack (1 max frame of punish)
bair OS > pivot grab (1 max frame of punish)

uair OS > jab (4 max frames of punish)

Samus/Yoshi Shield Grab (18 frames)
jab OS > jab (6 max frames of punish)
jab OS > dash attack (2 max frames of punish)
jab OS > grab (2 max frames of punish, space dependant)

ftilt OS > jab (5 max frames of punish)
ftilt OS > dash attack (1 max frames of punish)
ftilt OS > grab (1 max frames of punish, space dependant)

dtilt OS > jab (4 max frames of punish)

FH nair OS > jab (10 max frames of punish)
FH nair OS > dash attack (6 max frames of punish)
FH nair OS > grab (6 max frames of punish, space dependant)
FH nair OS > ftilt (4 max frames of punish)
FH nair OS > dtilt (3 max frames of punish)

fair OS > jab (13 max frames of punish)
fair OS > dash attack (9 max frames of punish)
fair OS > grab (9 max frames of punish)
fair OS > ftilt (7 max frames of punish)
fair OS > dtilt (6 max frames of punish)
fair OS > up-b (3 max frames of punish, space dependant)
fair OS > down-b (2 max frames of punish)

dair OS > jab (10 max frames of punish, space dependant)
dair OS > dash attack (6 max frames of punish)
dair OS > grab (6 max frames, space dependant)
dair OS > ftilt (4 max frames of punish)
dair OS > dtilt (3 max frames of punish)

bair OS > pivot jab (11 max frames of punish)
bair OS > dash attack (8 max frames of punish)
bair OS > pivot grab (7 frames of punish, space dependant)
bair OS > ftilt (6 max frames of punish)
bair OS > pivot dtilt (4 max frames of punish)
bair OS > up-b (1 max frames of punish, space dependant)

uair OS > jab (11 max frames of punish)
uair OS > dash attack (7 max frames of punish)
uair OS > grab (7 max frames of punish)
uair OS > ftilt (5 max frames of punish)
uair OS > dtilt (4 max frames of punish, space dependant)
uair OS > up-b (1 max frames of punish, space dependant)

 

[Coastward]

update: added bowser, link, samus, yoshi and young link shield pressure options.

 

[Sebovich]

I'm confused, I don't really understand how to read the table. For example :
"General Shield Grab:
jab OS > jab (16 max frames of punish)"
Would that mean, that when hitting a jab on shield, they have 16 frames of possible punish/grabbing time before I'm able to do another jab?
Is shield Stun calculated in this?

 

[Coastward]

I'm confused, I don't really understand how to read the table. For example :
"General Shield Grab:
jab OS > jab (16 max frames of punish)"
Would that mean, that when hitting a jab on shield, they have 16 frames of possible punish/grabbing time before I'm able to do another jab?
Is shield Stun calculated in this?

no it means when you jab a shield, you have that many frames to hit them with a jab before getting grabbed. and yeah shield stun is calculated.

 

[Sebovich]

no it means when you jab a shield, you have that many frames to hit them with a jab before getting grabbed. and yeah shield stun is calculated.

Thanks! One more question ; For example it says that when jabbing on shield, I have 10 frames to do f-tilt before getting grabbed, but f-tilt doesn't hit til frame 9 in the animation, does that mean I have a 1 frame window for mistakes if not frame perfect? Then there is also the the IASA of the jab to have in mind. Is all of that taken into account? I'm just asking cause these calculations doesn't add upp with what me myself came up with.

 

[-ACE-]

fair OS > dash attack (2 max frames of punish)
fair OS > grab (2 max frames of punish)

bair OS > dash attack (1 max frame of punish)
bair OS > pivot grab (1 max frame of punish)

^^ is it just me or is this as broken as Gary Busey?

 

[tm]

Pretty much all of ganon's attacks are negative on shield, so I don't understand either.

I'm reading this as
"General Shield Grab:
jab OS > jab (16 max frames of punish)"
If you jab someones shield, you have a 16 frame window again to jab them that it will come out before thier grab.

But there's no way that's right, because jab isn't even positive on shield, and 16 is extremely high. So what am I missing here?

 

[Sebovich]

I´ll post my calculations.

Jab does 7% dmg (if fresh) = 5 frames of Shield Stun (calculated (7+4,45) / 2,235)
Jab, if hitting first possible frame of dmg (frame 3) does stun from frame 3 to 8.
Jab, is IASA frame 19. So we can remove those 8 frames that the opponent is in Shield Stun, that leaves 11 frames in which
we are waiting for our Jab to finish, and another 3 frames for a NEW jab to hit its first frame (if frame perfect) for a total of 14 remaining frames.
NOW
If the opponent is frame perfect, they are able to begin shieldgrabbing on frame 9 (we are still wating 14 frames more for our jab to finish, and our new jab to connect). However, their grab comes out (Fox in this example) at frame 7 in their animation. So, their grab comes out on frame 16, and our frame perfect jab OS> jab, comes out on frame 22.
So, in reality:
We are 6 frames behind their fastest possible grab oos.

This is assuming they and we are frame perfect, I would say that jab OS> jab, is still pretty safe considering the speed of the jab and the speed of their grab. Which leaves us better of on doing mistakes than their grab.

HOWEVER: This also means that FAIR when fresh haves 9 frames of Shieldstun, and 12 frames lagtime when l-canceled.
They are out of shieldstun faster than we are l-canceled by 3 frames, but their grab oos takes 7 frames and our jab only 3 so If hitting the fair, our Jab would come out 1 frame faster than their Shieldgrab.

 

[Coastward]

Thanks! One more question ; For example it says that when jabbing on shield, I have 10 frames to do f-tilt before getting grabbed, but f-tilt doesn't hit til frame 9 in the animation, does that mean I have a 1 frame window for mistakes if not frame perfect? Then there is also the the IASA of the jab to have in mind. Is all of that taken into account? I'm just asking cause these calculations doesn't add upp with what me myself came up with.

i think i didnt explain it well enough; you have 10 frames before their grab animation is up. so for this example, you have 10 frames until their sheils comes back up again. and yes i did account for IASA frames.

fair OS > dash attack (2 max frames of punish)
fair OS > grab (2 max frames of punish)

bair OS > dash attack (1 max frame of punish)
bair OS > pivot grab (1 max frame of punish)

^^ is it just me or is this as broken as Gary Busey?

dash attacks are awkward because they need to be frame perfect.

Pretty much all of ganon's attacks are negative on shield, so I don't understand either.

I'm reading this as
"General Shield Grab:
jab OS > jab (16 max frames of punish)"
If you jab someones shield, you have a 16 frame window again to jab them that it will come out before thier grab.

But there's no way that's right, because jab isn't even positive on shield, and 16 is extremely high. So what am I missing here?

basically what i responded to the other guy, its the frames before the animation ends - not the grab hitbox.

soon ill add what you cant do to specific characters grabs because of different grab ranges. this was all done against fox so you can jab his shield and not get grabbed.

 

[Coastward]

I´ll post my calculations.
Jab does 7% dmg (if fresh) = 5 frames of Shield Stun (calculated (7+4,45) / 2,235)
Jab, if hitting first possible frame of dmg (frame 3) does stun from frame 3 to 10.
Jab, is IASA frame 19. So we can remove those 10 frames that the opponent is in Shield Stun, that leaves 9 frames in which
we are waiting for our Jab to finish, and if we are frame perfect another 3 frames for a NEW jab to hit its first frame for a total of 12 remaining frames.
NOW
If the opponent is frame perfect, they are able to begin shieldgrabbing on frame 11 (we are still wating 10 frames more for our jab to finish, and our new jab to connect). However, their grab comes out (Fox in this example) at frame 7 in their animation. So, their grab comes out on frame 18, and our frame perfect jab OS> jab, comes out on frame 21.
So, in reality:
We are 3 frames behind their fastest possible grab oos.

This is assuming they and we are frame perfect, I would say that jab OS> jab, is still pretty safe considering the speed of the jab and the speed of their grab. Which leaves us better of on doing mistakes than their grab.

this is what i would use to calculate for like, marth, since its harder to get out of his grab range. technically youre right, but its not exactly the situation i made these calculations for.

 

[Sebovich]

I updated my text as I went on. Of course this is all taking into account if our spacing is wrong, and they are able to grab oos. If not, they would require additional frames to move / either wavedash oos or jump oos.

 

[Coastward]

i'll add in character specific shield grabs after i get character specific oos options done, should be done by tomorrow.

 

[tm]

i think i didnt explain it well enough; you have 10 frames before their grab animation is up. so for this example, you have 10 frames until their sheils comes back up again. and yes i did account for IASA frames.

So it's the frame window to punish their frame-perfect whiff

 

[Coastward]

if you think about it that way then yeah i guess.

 

[Sebovich]

if you think about it that way then yeah i guess.

Good, cause I was thinking these where all things that were safe on shield so nothing was right in my book but now I know!

 

[Nicco]

You wrote this in a very confusing way man... If I understand it right, your calculations are based on the opponent shield grabbing on the first possible frame, and then the frames listed are how many frames we have to punish that shield grab?

 

[Coastward]

You wrote this in a very confusing way man... If I understand it right, your calculations are based on the opponent shield grabbing on the first possible frame, and then the frames listed are how many frames we have to punish that shield grab?

yeah thats correct.