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Ganon & Snake

Metal_Dave

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Messages
485
Location
Miami, Florida
So yeah this match up is not that bad as I thought or maybe I'm just catching on? But the problem is I keep coming short by a stock as I'm preparing for a tournament tomorrow and I am bound to face at least two snake players tomorrow that are pretty good(they think I'm pulling out my MK but I'm going to surprise them with Ganon :laugh: ). Here's a few thoughts I'd like to discuss about in this match up.

What approach do you prefer?

Edge-guarding situations.

How to get around the C4 on moving platform on Smashville.

...& Grenades


Any other questions can be put up also, but for now I'm just keeping this as a simple thread.
 

Fafnir

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
158
I'm not too good with Ganondorf, mainly just play him as a fun side character, and to match up against friends who aren't too good, but I do main Snake, and although I'm not very good at alll, I'd imagine I can help a bit.

Don't bother catching his grenades. A good Snake will immediatly make you drop them right away(and put you in a painful situation if you're not careful).

If he starts planting a mine, and you're on the stage(to be honest, any not-braindead Snake player should never put himself in this situation), >B him just as he finishes planting the mine. You'll take damage, but he will too. Only do this if you have the advantage, which I doubt you will if he gets this cocky.

When he's recovering with the cypher, and you're on the ledge, just grab him. The cypher will hit you, he'll fall, and he won't be able to recover without C4ing himself(which by then, should be too late, if you're lucky). Trying to jump out and spike him won't work too well, because the cypher covers above him(it also does damage and has a fixed knockback), so you'll either have to grab him, or intercept him from below or infront. And be careful, he can get out of it at any time and still attack you.

Although Snake's got some very, very powerful aerials, he's actually not too good when he's in the air. Use this to your advantage, if you get him in the air, keep him there. Usually, he'll try to counter by dropping a C4. I also sometimes will Al-Queda with a grenade to throw my enemy off, so watch his movements constantly.

If he manages to stick you with a C4, be ready. You can do either one of three things: Touch him to stick it back to him, keep yourself in shield or invincibility frames as much as possible, or run up to him as he's about to explode it. The first option rarely actually works in your favour, since Ganondorf is alot slower then Snake, and Snake can blow it up whenever he wants. You'd have to evade him for the entire time limit of the C4(which is very long). For the second option, you pretty much have to get lucky. You do have a moment before he activates it, but he'll probably take advantage of Ganon's massive lag and activate it then. The third option is easily the most amusing, and probably the most realistic if you've got the balls to pull it off. The main idea is to keep in Snake's face as much as possible. This way, if he does blow it up, it'll hit him too. If you get stuck, you'd best spend most of your time near him. Just make sure you don't screw it up. If he hits you, and then blows the C4, it could lead to a very easy cieling KO.

Against his Nikita missile, don't try to attack it. The missile cannot be destroyed, it will only be redirected, and he can easily turn it right back at you. Your best option is just to use your shield and take it like a man. Also be careful of dropped missiles. Since he can stop the missile's motion and drop it at any time, he can use it to drop in front of someone who thinks they successfully shielded a Nikita, when all along it was dropping right in front of their faces.

Approaching will be a pain in the ***. With the capability to get 5 projectiles on screen at once, you'll have to see alot of things coming. Unfortunatly, Snake is no slouch in the close range department either. His crazy range and power will make short work of you if you're not careful. You'll have no choice but to get close as well. Your best option would be to just keep the pressure on him. Let up just a little bit, and you'll find yourself having to approach through a flurry of projectiles all over again. It may be tough, but you have no other option.

Recovering against Snake will be hard. The Nikita is an obvious edgeguard, but that doesn't make it any easier to dodge. If you actually manage to get into range of the stage, he can spam ^smash to make it a pain in the *** to sweetspot the ledge. His Bair is also one hell of an attack for almost any purpose, but it really hurts when trying to recover against it. Lastly, his Fair is slow as hell, but if you don't see it coming, it will hurt. Alot. All in all, you're going to have a very tough recovery against Snake. Especially with Ganon's poor recovery in general. You'll just have to predict what he'll use, and outsmart him. But the worst is yet to come: He'll probably have mines set up just to make sure don't get up in one piece. You'll have to memorize the location of his mines(including not only where, but what kind), and analyze the situation. It's not pretty when he has mines set up to stop you from rolling, and a Nikita coming to your face when you jump, but you've got to think of a way.

Snake's basic stratagy is essentially to get you playing by his rules. And once he has you doing that, he's pretty much won. You've got to keep the pressure on him if you want to even stand a chance.
 

Sliq

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
4,871
Don't bother catching his grenades. A good Snake will immediatly make you drop them right away(and put you in a painful situation if you're not careful).
I disagree with this immensely. If snake is throwing grenades, he isn't close to you. And if he isn't close to you, he definitely isn't in range to punish you with anything. The only thing he might be able to do is dash attack up smash, and that is easily shielded. Then just throw the nade, and it should explode on him or his shield.

If he cooks his grenade, just avoid it and wait to see if he tries to cook the next one. IF he does, rush him. He can't do **** when he has a nade other than get rid of it, and if he gets rid of it he loses his long distance advantage.

Furthermore, Ganondorf can glide toss Snakes nades, sliding about half of Battlefield.

When he's recovering with the cypher, and you're on the ledge, just grab him. The cypher will hit you, he'll fall, and he won't be able to recover without C4ing himself(which by then, should be too late, if you're lucky). Trying to jump out and spike him won't work too well, because the cypher covers above him(it also does damage and has a fixed knockback), so you'll either have to grab him, or intercept him from below or infront. And be careful, he can get out of it at any time and still attack you.
Ganon has horrible grab range, and one of the best spikes in the game. It is ridiculously easy to spike Snake through the cipher with the down air.

Furthermore, you can even Tipman spike Snake repeatedly. If it doesn't kill him, it will at least lead into a lot of damage, or a Thunder Stomp.

Although Snake's got some very, very powerful aerials, he's actually not too good when he's in the air. Use this to your advantage, if you get him in the air, keep him there. Usually, he'll try to counter by dropping a C4. I also sometimes will Al-Queda with a grenade to throw my enemy off, so watch his movements constantly.
The problem with keeping him in the air is the air dodge. The best thing to do is either do an up air, and if they air dodge, follow up with another up air and hit him after the air dodge, or wait untill he starts his air dodge and then fair, beasting him into the atmosphere.

The problem arises when he opts to attack you back. It is a matter of spacing yourself to avoid taking one of snakes aerials (something you don't want to do), or reading it and responding appropriately.

Against his Nikita missile, don't try to attack it. The missile cannot be destroyed, it will only be redirected, and he can easily turn it right back at you. Your best option is just to use your shield and take it like a man. Also be careful of dropped missiles. Since he can stop the missile's motion and drop it at any time, he can use it to drop in front of someone who thinks they successfully shielded a Nikita, when all along it was dropping right in front of their faces.
Your best option is going over it, since it can't climb very well.

Approaching will be a pain in the ***. With the capability to get 5 projectiles on screen at once, you'll have to see alot of things coming. Unfortunatly, Snake is no slouch in the close range department either. His crazy range and power will make short work of you if you're not careful. You'll have no choice but to get close as well. Your best option would be to just keep the pressure on him. Let up just a little bit, and you'll find yourself having to approach through a flurry of projectiles all over again. It may be tough, but you have no other option.
Snakes projectiles really aren't nearly as good as people seem to think they are. Your biggest problem is going to be fighting his tilts. Ganon's f smash ***** back before he lunges forward, which can be used to dodge and retaliate against f tilt spam.

Your best bet is to stay out of range of his tilts and react to what he does, whether it is tilting, rolling, or spot dodging. Ganon's over b should be good for keeping Snake from hiding in his shield, and auto cancel dair's are good for punishing rolling and for KO'ing.

Recovering against Snake will be hard. The Nikita is an obvious edgeguard, but that doesn't make it any easier to dodge. If you actually manage to get into range of the stage, he can spam ^smash to make it a pain in the *** to sweetspot the ledge. His Bair is also one hell of an attack for almost any purpose, but it really hurts when trying to recover against it. Lastly, his Fair is slow as hell, but if you don't see it coming, it will hurt. Alot. All in all, you're going to have a very tough recovery against Snake. Especially with Ganon's poor recovery in general. You'll just have to predict what he'll use, and outsmart him. But the worst is yet to come: He'll probably have mines set up just to make sure don't get up in one piece. You'll have to memorize the location of his mines(including not only where, but what kind), and analyze the situation. It's not pretty when he has mines set up to stop you from rolling, and a Nikita coming to your face when you jump, but you've got to think of a way.
If you are ahead by a stock or are losing heavily in percent, and Snake is near the ledge spamming up smash, if you drop off the ledge, double jump away from the stage, and over b, you wlll be able to grab snake, pull him through the stage, and suicide with him in tow.

Furthermore, Ganon can drop off the stage, double jump, up air, and instantly regrab the stage, forcing Snake to back the **** off of the stage. Or you can use the purple punch from Ganon's up b.

Snake's basic stratagy is essentially to get you playing by his rules. And once he has you doing that, he's pretty much won. You've got to keep the pressure on him if you want to even stand a chance.
What you want to do is just be close to him, and do nothing, and force him to act. He's too slow to maneuver easily, and his dash attack is easily shielded.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
I disagree with this immensely. If snake is throwing grenades, he isn't close to you. And if he isn't close to you, he definitely isn't in range to punish you with anything. The only thing he might be able to do is dash attack up smash, and that is easily shielded. Then just throw the nade, and it should explode on him or his shield.

If he cooks his grenade, just avoid it and wait to see if he tries to cook the next one. IF he does, rush him. He can't do **** when he has a nade other than get rid of it, and if he gets rid of it he loses his long distance advantage.

Furthermore, Ganondorf can glide toss Snakes nades, sliding about half of Battlefield.
You do know Snake can strip grenades from people right? Try it. Have Snake drop a grenade, then have Ganon pick it up. Have Snake draw another grenade and have him shield drop it. Is it stupid? YEP Does it exist? Sadly.

I'm still reading your post but the rest of your info is, as always, solid.
 

Sliq

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 13, 2006
Messages
4,871
You do know Snake can strip grenades from people right? Try it. Have Snake drop a grenade, then have Ganon pick it up. Have Snake draw another grenade and have him shield drop it. Is it stupid? YEP Does it exist? Sadly.

I'm still reading your post but the rest of your info is, as always, solid.
So you drop the nade because he drops it?

That would explain a lot.

Well, knowing this, you could just dash straight at him, full kilt. If he is doing this trick, he should have a nade in his hand, and therefore should be easy to smack in the face, or over b.

Just get medium distance from him, and see what he does. Catch the nade, and if he pulls another one, rush him. if not, you now have a nade.

This is just speculation though. I haven't played this out yet, but once I do I should have some sort of counter.
 

Fafnir

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
158
I disagree with this immensely. If snake is throwing grenades, he isn't close to you. And if he isn't close to you, he definitely isn't in range to punish you with anything. The only thing he might be able to do is dash attack up smash, and that is easily shielded. Then just throw the nade, and it should explode on him or his shield.

If he cooks his grenade, just avoid it and wait to see if he tries to cook the next one. IF he does, rush him. He can't do **** when he has a nade other than get rid of it, and if he gets rid of it he loses his long distance advantage.

Furthermore, Ganondorf can glide toss Snakes nades, sliding about half of Battlefield.
See grenade stripping. It's very fun when someone doesn't expect it.

Ganon has horrible grab range, and one of the best spikes in the game. It is ridiculously easy to spike Snake through the cipher with the down air.

Furthermore, you can even Tipman spike Snake repeatedly. If it doesn't kill him, it will at least lead into a lot of damage, or a Thunder Stomp.
Point is, a grab is essentially /stock.

The problem with keeping him in the air is the air dodge. The best thing to do is either do an up air, and if they air dodge, follow up with another up air and hit him after the air dodge, or wait untill he starts his air dodge and then fair, beasting him into the atmosphere.
The point was just a tip as to saying that it's easier to fight Snake when he's in the air. Of course that's much harder then it sounds, but for a character like Snake, you need to take advantage of all the weaknesses you can.

Your best option is going over it, since it can't climb very well.
That all depends on where you are, really. Personally, I don't even use the Nikita much unless it's for edgeguarding, or really far away anyway. And the Nikita can move just as fast upwards as it can in any other direction. What you really need to watch for is the drop.

Snakes projectiles really aren't nearly as good as people seem to think they are. Your biggest problem is going to be fighting his tilts. Ganon's f smash ***** back before he lunges forward, which can be used to dodge and retaliate against f tilt spam.
The problem with Snake's projectiles isn't the quality-despite the fact that they're all good, they're not immensly deadly on their own- it's the quantity. It's simply alot to keep track of. And I'll have to agree, his tilts are ****ing beastly. Also, Ftilt shouldn't be spammed too much. It's a great move, but it's too good a kill move to be wasted upping %. He has plenty of other great moves for that job.

If you are ahead by a stock or are losing heavily in percent, and Snake is near the ledge spamming up smash, if you drop off the ledge, double jump away from the stage, and over b, you wlll be able to grab snake, pull him through the stage, and suicide with him in tow.
I doubt this will be the case, unless said Snakes OP plans on going against suck. It's a great stratagy and all, and it is oh so fun to do, but at the very least, I'd imagine the fight will be close throughout. Also watch out, depending on the stage(most notably, battlefield and FD), Snake could have set C4 on the side of the ledge, making sweetspotting potential suicide.

Furthermore, Ganon can drop off the stage, double jump, up air, and instantly regrab the stage, forcing Snake to back the **** off of the stage. Or you can use the purple punch from Ganon's up b.
See the above. It won't happen too often, but it's best to be prepared.

What you want to do is just be close to him, and do nothing, and force him to act. He's too slow to maneuver easily, and his dash attack is easily shielded.
It's not the attack part of his dash attack to watch out for, it's the Snakedash. Using that, he can reset your approach from the beginning.

So you drop the nade because he drops it?

That would explain a lot.
Pretty much.

Well, knowing this, you could just dash straight at him, full kilt. If he is doing this trick, he should have a nade in his hand, and therefore should be easy to smack in the face, or over b.
You're only real solution would be to >B. Otherwise, he could just shield, making you drop your grenade and him his, and causing you to set them both off in your face(they explode if hit by an attack). If you grab him, the worst that could happen is both of you getting hit(and putting you at a small % advantage because of the choke).

Just get medium distance from him, and see what he does. Catch the nade, and if he pulls another one, rush him. if not, you now have a nade.
All he has to do is pull up a shield, and you get nade to the face. If you catch a grenade, I'd recommend just throwing it at him as fast as you can. If you're lucky, he won't strip it in mid-flight(Snake is Neo). On the bad end, you'll be far away enough from the nade not to get blown up. On the worst end, he'll have seen you catching it coming, and planned to strip it right away. You'll have to high-tail it out of the way.

This is just speculation though. I haven't played this out yet, but once I do I should have some sort of counter.

Snake's a tough character, and despite the fact that he isn't exactly the fastest character in the world, he has plenty of tools to make up for that. I can't really account for all Snake players, but I happen to lose alot of my ability when I'm under pressure. I'd recommend a RTSD stratagy, just stay in his face, and make sure you can see what options he has(he has alot of them).
 

gantrain05

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
3,840
Location
Maxwell, IA
well when fighting snake, only thing i can really say, is keep pressure on him at all times, never give him a chance to get mines down and start spamming nades and nikita as far as close quarters combat i'd say ganon has a slight advantage in power and speed and if you get ahead, snake can very very easily be murderchocked off the edge if he's on the cypher, he doesnt have time to let it go and dodge you.
 
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