Game design question: How to balance a character who cannot grab.

[LovinMitts]

I've been wondering about what would need to be done in order to offset the absence of a major part a character's moveset. Something like the ability to grab, for example. If a character cannot grab, they will both have trouble fighting against shielding opponents, as well as getting stuck in their shield easily. How would you overcome an obstacle like this if you were the one designing a character with this weakness? How amazing would they need to be in other areas in order to offset this loss? Feel free to share your ideas.

Here is what I personally thought of:

Spoiler

So I came up with an entire character concept going off of this original idea of a character being unable to grab. The character is a shadowy form that has long elastic arms with blades on the ends of them. From there, I just went wild. I figured this character would need to have a very great neutral, a combo game that eliminated the need for throws in order to start combos, and good out of shield options. What I came up with was this special moveset:

• Neutral B: a mid-range projectile that begins at a fast speed that slows down and eventually hangs in place with an active hitbox for a brief moment.
• Side-B: On the ground this move is a burst of movement forward that has invincibility frames. In the air, it is a short airdash that can be acted out of very early into the animation, while retaining the momentum from it.
• Down-B: On the ground, it causes you to leap into the air to a height that is higher than if you had only used your jump and double jump. Has moderate startup. The purpose is to allow you to quickly chase opponents into the air for juggles and combos. In the air, you simply do a short twirling jump. The aerial version allows you to gain a little extra height while also shifting your momentum left or right.
• Up-B: This is a tether recovery, but a really good one. The character stretches its arm outward and drives the knife into the stage, pulling you to where it hit the stage afterward. If you only tap up-B, it will aim straight for the ledge and snap to it immediately. If you hold up-B and roll the control stick into a different direction, the arm will go that direction, allowing you to aim which way you go. If you hit the side of the stage with this move, you will fly to where your knife-hand was. You get your double jump back if you do this. If this move hits an opponent, they will be held in place as you're pulled towards them. Being pulled into your opponent hits them away and you are bounced back a bit. You can combo out of this if you airdash after and follow the way they get launched from it.

The character also has a ton of multihitting moves, and a very long ranged forward smash where they fling their knife-hand forward. This character has a very good rapid jab, as it has a finisher. Pressing B during the rapid jab triggers the finisher, which causes you to flash through the opponent while slashing them.

Up air is a single upward hit, forward air is a two hit move with the first hit setting up into the second hit. The second hit send the opponent upwards and combos at early percents, but it kills at higher percents. Back air is a multihitting series of lunges with the knife-hands. Down air is a drill, and neutral air is a multihitting move where this character spins with both arms spread.

Instead of grabbing, if this character presses A while in shield, it initiates a shield burst that stuns surrounding opponents, but depletes the shield down to just above minimum. This can only be done in a certain window after shieldstun ends. This can't be done without being in shieldstun first.

The stunning hitbox of the shield burst comes out on frame 5. It is intangible on frames 5 and 6. The animation finishes on frame 24. The stun does 3% damage.

If the stun from the shield burst isn't interrupted, it sends the opponent diagonally down with set knockback (It slides them away from you.)

 

[GothicSlenderman]

I'd say, if you're going to remove a big aspect like Grabbing, add a new one replacing the grabbing.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Sounds to me like a character with the concept you described in detail would have the potential for insane shield locks and breaks assuming the stun was high enough to lock them in place long enough. Sounds incredibly dangerous to me.

 

[flieskiller]

you could replace grab or add with special moves with windboxes, allowing to push a shielded opponent, for comboing with other stuff or just pushing them out of position. For instance, combined with some static projectiles (like the neutral-b in the spoiler) that hurts the shield a lot, it could be a good and original alternative.

 

[Sudoi]

Why not give away the stereotypical buffs, such as a new move, or updated statistics, and instead go a new route? Instead of rewarding the enemy for attacking their shield, punish them! A sort of self destruct function that goes along with shielding. Look at Purin in Brawl-. She has a massive shield, and when it breaks, anyone around her is dead, regardless. Why not have the character with no grab have "spikes" on their shield that reduces effectiveness of attacks or hurts the enemy when nearby? You can't call it at any time you feel like it (the move), and it isn't a "buff" in the traditional sense.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not a game designer but if the grab button is left unused you could have a move that replenishes help slowly, kind of like Ivysaur.

 

[Sudoi]

I'm not a game designer but if the grab button is left unused you could have a move that replenishes help slowly, kind of like Ivysaur.

Rewarding the player for choosing someone who inherently has a disadvantage is bad. If you could call that move at any time, it would give them several less moves than people who have throws. Instead, reward the player for using their current options defensively.

 

[Deleted member]

Ahh. I see. So a character with no grab would have to be designed around it's defensive capabilities instead of it's offensive to make up for the grab? Just speculating.

 

[Sudoi]

Not HAVE to be based around defensive capabilities, but that would be the preferred way (in my mind). Think about it: Instead of 4 throws and a pummel (and release), counting up to 6 different possible actions repaired with one, a single move would be underwhelming. Instead, giving it a function which allows it to act quickly, with more variety, would balance it. Imagine if the enemy did over 30 damage to the shield while it was being pressed (once, as it would reset to 0 once let go), and it stunned them. This would allow the player to act out of such shield and then start a combo, giving them time to replenish their shield, and get back into the lead.


EDIT: Refer to the stun thing as a passive ability.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm thinking something like a mini moveset, although your idea is probably the best way. Imagine any character with their b-moves. Side B, Up B, down B and neutral B. This move that replaces grab, would have, say two or three moves that did something such as a move that stopped combos, and a combo starter. Could be slightly OP, but could be made in a way that only stopped combos after the second hit. EDITED

 

[LovinMitts]

Not HAVE to be based around defensive capabilities, but that would be the preferred way (in my mind). Think about it: Instead of 4 throws and a pummel (and release), counting up to 6 different possible actions repaired with one, a single move would be underwhelming. Instead, giving it a function which allows it to act quickly, with more variety, would balance it. Imagine if the enemy did over 30 damage to the shield while it was being pressed (once, as it would reset to 0 once let go), and it stunned them. This would allow the player to act out of such shield and then start a combo, giving them time to replenish their shield, and get back into the lead.


EDIT: Refer to the stun thing as a passive ability.

I dunno about having it passive. I think it should be up to the player when to activate it, making it a skillful interaction of sorts. The player choosing when to activate it leaves it up to skill much more than it being passive. What I put in the sticky seems to suit this purpose fine

 

[Sudoi]

But remember, the player is handicapped already by reduced options, so you should give them an easier time.

I dunno about having it passive. I think it should be up to the player when to activate it, making it a skillful interaction of sorts. The player choosing when to activate it leaves it up to skill much more than it being passive. What I put in the sticky seems to suit this purpose fine