G&W Mewtwo Match-up?

[trummyg]

So far the most useful thing I've found about fighting Mewtwo would be that his neutral B can fill the bucket without being fully charged. Does anyone else have anything useful about it?

 

[JohnnyB]

I wonder how Mewtwo's large hurtbox and floaty mechanics will influence the mu? Normally it would be a huge advantage for us but his aerials are looking really good. That tail has some good range and I'm not sure but i think it could be disjointed.

The large and floatyness should help out our ground game against him though. On the ground i have heard Mewtwo described as a "high risk high reward" character. Seems like easy pickings for a character like game and watch as long as you can avoid getting hit a lot.

 

[TheMiSP]

You can crouch under Disable...

But that shouldn't be regarded as anything because you're vulnerable to his Dtilt or Ftilt, the former being frame 6 which is as fast as his jab, and the latter being Shulk-status in terms of range.

Jump out of Confusion.

Idk

 

[Luxent]

^ is it disable? I always thought it was Glare, since in the game it renders you paralyzed.

but mewtwo probably doesnt learn glare in the game and im waaaay too lazy to check. lolz

 

[TheMiSP]

^ is it disable? I always thought it was Glare, since in the game it renders you paralyzed.

but mewtwo probably doesnt learn glare in the game and im waaaay too lazy to check. lolz

Yeah it's Disable. Same move set as Melee from which it originated from.

 

[BBC7]

Don't be that guy that waits for Mewtwo to fire out a Shadow Ball so you can absorb it. Real talk though, Dash Attack is your friend. He has slow moves asides from D-Tilt, which can be dealt with through Short Order Chef. D-Throw also probably does good damage against Mewtwo especially factoring in his weight. Finally, Mewtwo can't approach with aerials unless he wants to die. Nair might be able to beat U-Smash, but it's not like Nair is the most rewarding move in Mewtwo's arsenal.

 

[LaunchStar]

I've been maining Mr. G&W for a while and all these Mewtwo's have allowed me to determine that Mr. G&W isn't a great matchup, but he's not terrible either. He's meh.

A few things I've noticed:
Pros-
Using Mr. G&W's dtilt really ****s with a Mewtwo's ledge recovery game (especially if they're going in for an fair or something)
Mr. G&W's uair is amazing for freaking Mewtwo's out. Since they're so light, it's easy to uair and figure out another approach method while they fall.
As usual, Mr. G&W's usmash will wreak everything if performed at the right time, and the aforementioned light weight of Mewtwo lets Mr. G&W K.O at low percentages.

Cons-
Mr. G&W's dair has a lot of end lag, and since Mewtwo's forward attacks come out relatively fast, it's easy to get punished by that.
Shadow Ball's trajectory does that weird corkscrew thingy, so it's a bit tricky to Bucket.

 

[BBC7]

Got some nice anti-Mewtwo tech, involves the second Up B custom though.

D-Throw -> U-Tilt -> Up-B -> Fair at 0%, does 39% damage. The follow-ups are also pretty good and Mewtwo is really light.
D-Throw -> Up-B -> Fair at 0%, does 31% damage.
D-Throw -> U-Air at 82%-89%, does 20% damage and kills. This combo is so good, that having rage actually sucks because this doesn't connect anymore.

All are guaranteed.

 

[dahuterschuter]

I dunno man but I've gotten more Oil Panics online in the last week than in this game's lifetime prior.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

^ is it disable? I always thought it was Glare, since in the game it renders you paralyzed.

lol I always thought it was Mean Look.

 

[SeanS]

60-40 in G&W's favor. I've played this quite a bit at this point and I'm decently confident of this number.

This is actually one of the few matchups where bucket is a threat. Full charge shadow ball or 3x uncharged shadow ball can get a guaranteed KO at near 0% dthrow > bucket. Because of this, Mewtwo cannot afford to zone carelessly like other characters in this game.

Mewtwo's air game is hugely fair reliant and inconsistent otherwise. Dair can actually beat out helmet (another what the **** thing aspect to this game, I got this on video for the bull**** montages too), but this is super rare to pull off and he has a terrible combination of speed and floatiness which makes him excellent vortex chase material.

Mewtwo's throws are much better than people give him credit for, especially in this MU. It's too bad that his grabs suck and often miss. His ability to rely on this as a kill option is unfortunately limited.

Confusion is absolute garbage against G&W. It shoots him off at a weird and high angle and doesn't allow for followups most of the time.

Mewtwo dies to dthrow > uair horribly.

The only thing G&W really has to watch out for are dtilts (low damage except from low percent due to comboability, so occasionally falling for it is not a huge deal) and full charge shadow ball. Unfortunately, Mewtwo needs a hard read for the latter because just throwing it out means that G&W can take his next stock cleanly.

I guess if you mess up a lot, you might think Mewtwo wins this one... but consistency will prove G&W the victor in this MU.

 

[meleebrawler]

60-40 in G&W's favor. I've played this quite a bit at this point and I'm decently confident of this number.

This is actually one of the few matchups where bucket is a threat. Full charge shadow ball or 3x uncharged shadow ball can get a guaranteed KO at near 0% dthrow > bucket. Because of this, Mewtwo cannot afford to zone carelessly like other characters in this game.

Mewtwo's air game is hugely fair reliant and inconsistent otherwise. Dair can actually beat out helmet (another what the **** thing aspect to this game, I got this on video for the bull**** montages too), but this is super rare to pull off and he has a terrible combination of speed and floatiness which makes him excellent vortex chase material.

Mewtwo's throws are much better than people give him credit for, especially in this MU. It's too bad that his grabs suck and often miss. His ability to rely on this as a kill option is unfortunately limited.

Confusion is absolute garbage against G&W. It shoots him off at a weird and high angle and doesn't allow for followups most of the time.

Mewtwo dies to dthrow > uair horribly.

The only thing G&W really has to watch out for are dtilts (low damage except from low percent due to comboability, so occasionally falling for it is not a huge deal) and full charge shadow ball. Unfortunately, Mewtwo needs a hard read for the latter because just throwing it out means that G&W can take his next stock cleanly.

I guess if you mess up a lot, you might think Mewtwo wins this one... but consistency will prove G&W the victor in this MU.

Mewtwo never gets any true followups out of Confusion, especially if the opponent jumps away. G&W is no exception.
Instead Mewtwo plays mixup games with it and dthrow, seeing what options the opponent takes to escape potential
followups in order to cut them off.

Savvy Mewtwo players can use Shadow Ball recoil to bypass G&W's spacing, though Chef can stop it reliably. However
it also leaves you open to a simply thrown Shadow Ball, so don't get lax.

Mewtwo's OOS game is better than most people think thanks to dtilt, it punishes moves that normally would have been safe
with good spacing, and close range hits with it lead to better combos. And if you space really bad, or he just reads you in the
air, Usmash is a ferocious anti-air.

With Confusion and Teleport, Mewtwo has more options to avoid landing traps than you might think.
Conversely, Mewtwo's own dash attack almost rivals G&W's in terms of punishing, it's disjointed
and it can kill when G&W is damaged enough.

And his Bair is a decent spacing move in it's own right, I only really see the turtle giving it issues.

 

[SeanS]

Of course Confusion is generally unreliable - but the angle it sends G&W off at in particular is really bad and prevents most of the followups that work on other characters.

Wasting a full charge shadow ball to escape vortexes is super risky anyway, and not simply because Mewtwo needs it for kills - Mewtwo's recovery will generally come at an angle that lets him get trapped by dash attack as he shoots himself directly at the ledge. If this is not the case (super rare), he will usually do a second jump in place offstage, and he sets himself up to get edgeguarded by a character that is great at doing just that.

Not contesting dtilt's use in this MU at all, it is the only thing that keeps Mewtwo safe on the ground. I did mention it previously. The problem with it is that it does a very low amount of damage per hit unless you do a followup, which is not always guaranteed, especially at higher percents where you might feel pressured to win footsies.

Mewtwo's dash attack is weird - it gets collision cancelled very easily, and the main reason you use it is because his grab is unreliable. I do not think the kill percents are particularly good as I have never killed with it in weeks of grinding Mewtwo as a potential main.

Bair is similarly a mixed bag. The spacing is good, but it's got lingering hurtboxes and it's got tons of lag to start and end with. I wouldn't rely on it.

 

[meleebrawler]

Of course Confusion is generally unreliable - but the angle it sends G&W off at in particular is really bad and prevents most of the followups that work on other characters.

Wasting a full charge shadow ball to escape vortexes is super risky anyway, and not simply because Mewtwo needs it for kills - Mewtwo's recovery will generally come at an angle that lets him get trapped by dash attack as he shoots himself directly at the ledge. If this is not the case (super rare), he will usually do a second jump in place offstage, and he sets himself up to get edgeguarded by a character that is great at doing just that.

Not contesting dtilt's use in this MU at all, it is the only thing that keeps Mewtwo safe on the ground. I did mention it previously. The problem with it is that it does a very low amount of damage per hit unless you do a followup, which is not always guaranteed, especially at higher percents where you might feel pressured to win footsies.

Mewtwo's dash attack is weird - it gets collision cancelled very easily, and the main reason you use it is because his grab is unreliable. I do not think the kill percents are particularly good as I have never killed with it in weeks of grinding Mewtwo as a potential main.

Bair is similarly a mixed bag. The spacing is good, but it's got lingering hurtboxes and it's got tons of lag to start and end with. I wouldn't rely on it.

Why would I Shadow Ball myself to the edge when I have a Teleport that does the same thing but way easier
and safer? If I ever use it to recover, I'm going to shoot myself way past the ledge, at a speed that generally only
the fastest characters can keep up with, and if I need to stall in the air offstage I'll be using Confusion, not double jump.
What I'm saying is that if throwing Shadow Balls at G&W is too risky because of bucket, why not simply use it to move
better, and THEN throw it when G&W expects more of it?

Dash attack clanking only really happens if you try to use it as a raw approach or are too late on a punish.

Does it really matter if G&W gets sent at a weird angle from Confusion? Mewtwo will never attempt a followup unless
he's absolutely certain of what the opponent will do, and even the safest option of jumping away lets Mewtwo
create landing pressure.

G&W's air-to ground game isn't so hot either, almost any aerial he does on Mewtwo's shield can be punished
unless he crosses up, but an up smash can maul him if he tries that. There's going to be a lot of baiting and conditioning
from both sides, because both of them need to punish a big mistake to really open up opportunities.

 

[SeanS]

Why would I Shadow Ball myself to the edge when I have a Teleport that does the same thing but way easier
and safer?

The endlag is significant. If you are read, you will get thrown for 20% or possibly even a uair kill. Sometimes you don't even need to be read because foxtrotting will cover the directions you can land in, and at worst it should enable a dash attack in theory, which will either shoot you offstage or force you to hover close to the ground, which is exactly where you don't want to be (yes, you can go for fair in this scenario, but that's absurdly hard to do in practice)

If I ever use it to recover, I'm going to shoot myself way past the ledge, at a speed that generally only
the fastest characters can keep up with

I am 95% sure that dash attack will cover the scenario you are imagining, if I understand it right. Yes, you can mindgame with your landing locations, but if you have ever played someone who is actually good with this character, they will be mindgaming too.

and if I need to stall in the air offstage I'll be using Confusion, not double jump.

This, while definitely a good option for Mewtwo, isn't as good as you'd think it is against this character - it cancels your momentum just enough for G&W to reactively foxtrot in your direction.

Dash attack clanking only really happens if you try to use it as a raw approach or are too late on a punish.

When do you specifically expect to be able to use it on this character in a consistent way? Please identify specific scenarios.

Does it really matter if G&W gets sent at a weird angle from Confusion? Mewtwo will never attempt a followup unless
he's absolutely certain of what the opponent will do, and even the safest option of jumping away lets Mewtwo
create landing pressure.

It does, because it decreases the number of followups you have in the first place. Your surety of what I will do is fundamentally decreased.

Also, the last bit is not true - this is hugely dependent on stage control because Mewtwo's chases are not quick enough, and it is perfectly possible to opt for a ledge grab.

G&W's air-to ground game isn't so hot either, almost any aerial he does on Mewtwo's shield can be punished
unless he crosses up

Sourspot fair into jab is very effective, and it's kind of strange to think I will just shoot aerials into your shield range without a reason to do so.

I just thought of this, also, although I don't really do it: if G&W did a perfectly timed crossup grab, would Mewtwo's ftilt, timed as G&W touched the ground (when the threat of turtle becomes nonexistent), come out in time to stop it?

 

[meleebrawler]

The endlag is significant. If you are read, you will get thrown for 20% or possibly even a uair kill. Sometimes you don't even need to be read because foxtrotting will cover the directions you can land in, and at worst it should enable a dash attack in theory, which will either shoot you offstage or force you to hover close to the ground, which is exactly where you don't want to be (yes, you can go for fair in this scenario, but that's absurdly hard to do in practice)

How do you grab someone who's grabbing the edge?

I am 95% sure that dash attack will cover the scenario you are imagining, if I understand it right. Yes, you can mindgame with your landing locations, but if you have ever played someone who is actually good with this character, they will be mindgaming too.

Only if you anticipate it by not standing close to the edge, but then you leave that open to be safely grabbed.
Only the fastest characters can guard the edge and punish Mewtwo reactively if he tries the Shadow Ball recovery.
Heck, if the stage permits it he can go under the stage using this and grab the other edge with relative ease.

This, while definitely a good option for Mewtwo, isn't as good as you'd think it is against this character - it cancels your momentum just enough for G&W to reactively foxtrot in your direction.

How do you foxtrot offstage?

When do you specifically expect to be able to use it on this character in a consistent way? Please identify specific scenarios.

The same way G&W uses his: punish landings and distant whiffs.

Sourspot fair into jab is very effective, and it's kind of strange to think I will just shoot aerials into your shield range without a reason to do so.

I just thought of this, also, although I don't really do it: if G&W did a perfectly timed crossup grab, would Mewtwo's ftilt, timed as G&W touched the ground (when the threat of turtle becomes nonexistent), come out in time to stop it?

Just trying to illustrate how difficult it is for G&W to really do anything without a punish or if Mewtwo is on point
with his defensive moves, and vice-versa for Mewtwo. It's a pretty even fight, all things considered, just
G&W has a slight edge due to his bucket.

Doing any kind of crossover against Mewtwo leaves you open to an usmash, or even just an utilt if close
enough. You're going to have to do a lot of baiting to discourage him from using usmash.

 

[SeanS]

If you are just going to teleport direct to the ledge every time, the lingering hitboxes from dash attack will get you, and if you suddenly redecide where you will land, well, that's taking a risk in close quarters.