Future Ganondorf Buffs

[Litany]

This thread was created for discussing changes to Ganondorf that people wish for. Considering that patch 1.1.5 came out of pretty much nowhere, I wouldn't say that another patch is completely out of the question.

Personally, some changes that I would make to Ganondorf would be:

Ground Attacks
Down Smash: Removal of thigh hitbox
Reason: Most of you probably know about Ganondorf's jank thigh hitbox (the one that doesn't chain into the second hit). This allows Down Smash to link properly all of the time.

Aerial Attacks
Neutral Air: Landing lag decreased from 17 to 14
Reason: This allows Neutral Air to be a better approach option, and makes Ganondorf safe when landing with the 1st hit of Neutral Air (but not safe enough to grant followups).

Forward Air: Auto-cancel window changed from <55 to <42
Reason: This allows Forward Air to auto-cancel in a full hop, so Ganondorf can finally use this move without suffering 22 frames of landing lag.

Special Attacks
Dark Dive (Up Special): Angle changed from 361° to 20°
Reason: Even though Dark Dive was buffed in terms of damage in 1.1.3, it is still one of Ganondorf's more underwhelming moves. This changes Dark Dive to be a powerful semi-spike, giving it some utility against people trying to edge-guard Ganondorf (or for disrespect ).

Grabs / Throws
Standing Grab: Hitbox size changed from 2.75 to 3.10
Reason: This increases Ganondorf's terrible grab range (the worst in the game) to a poor but usable one. This makes it whiff less during shield grab attempts. Ganondorf's dash and pivot grab I chose to keep unchanged, as their range is somewhat manageable.

Dash Grab: Grab hitbox duration changed from 11-12 to 10-11, FAF decreased from 45 to 41
Reason: This makes Ganondorf's dash grab come out a little quicker and end a little sooner, specifically so that Ganondorf has a bit of an easier time against campers that like to hold shield.

Pummel: Damage increased from 3% to 4%
Reason: Considering that Ganondorf can usually get at maximum two pummels in, this makes getting grabbed by him a bit more threatening.

Back Throw: BKB increased from 30 to 60
Reason: This makes Back Throw a solid kill option at about 130%, giving him an actual kill throw. This, again, is a buff to makes his grabs more threatening.

Up Throw: Second hit damage increased from 3% to 5%
Reason: This gives Up Throw some utility as an alternate kill throw on platforms. The damage also amounts to 12%, which makes it a decent damage dealer similar to Forward Throw.

Other
Run Speed: Increase from 1.218 to 1.312
Reason: This makes Ganondorf a the same speed as Dr. Mario, which allows him to punish and follow-up better for combos.

Air Speed: Increase from .79 to .88
Reason: This slightly improves Ganondorf's horizontal recovery and neutral game. It allows Ganondorf to fully capitalize on his powerful aerials, which when combined with better aerial approach buffs would give him a better time against campers.

 

[Mellos]

This thread was created for discussing changes to Ganondorf that people wish for. Considering that patch 1.1.5 came out of pretty much nowhere, I wouldn't say that another patch is completely out of the question.

Personally, some changes that I would make to Ganondorf would be:

Ground Attacks
Down Smash: Removal of thigh hitbox
Reason: Most of you probably know about Ganondorf's jank thigh hitbox (the one that doesn't chain into the second hit). This allows Down Smash to link properly all of the time.

Aerial Attacks
Neutral Air: Landing lag decreased from 17 to 14
Reason: This allows Neutral Air to be a better approach option, and makes Ganondorf safe when landing with the 1st hit of Neutral Air (but not safe enough to grant followups).

Forward Air: Auto-cancel window changed from <55 to <42
Reason: This allows Forward Air to auto-cancel in a full hop, so Ganondorf can finally use this move without suffering 22 frames of landing lag.

Special Attacks
Dark Dive (Up Special): Angle changed from 361° to 20°
Reason: Even though Dark Dive was buffed in terms of damage in 1.1.3, it is still one of Ganondorf's more underwhelming moves. This changes Dark Dive to be a powerful semi-spike, giving it some utility against people trying to edge-guard Ganondorf (or for disrespect ).

Grabs / Throws
Standing Grab: Hitbox size changed from 2.75 to 3.10
Reason: This increases Ganondorf's terrible grab range (the worst in the game) to a poor but usable one. This makes it whiff less during shield grab attempts. Ganondorf's dash and pivot grab I chose to keep unchanged, as their range is somewhat manageable.

Dash Grab: Grab hitbox duration changed from 11-12 to 10-11, FAF decreased from 45 to 41
Reason: This makes Ganondorf's dash grab come out a little quicker and end a little sooner, specifically so that Ganondorf has a bit of an easier time against campers that like to hold shield.

Pummel: Damage increased from 3% to 4%
Reason: Considering that Ganondorf can usually get at maximum two pummels in, this makes getting grabbed by him a bit more threatening.

Back Throw: BKB increased from 30 to 60
Reason: This makes Back Throw a solid kill option at about 130%, giving him an actual kill throw. This, again, is a buff to makes his grabs more threatening.

Up Throw: Second hit damage increased from 3% to 5%
Reason: This gives Up Throw some utility as an alternate kill throw on platforms. The damage also amounts to 12%, which makes it a decent damage dealer similar to Forward Throw.

Other
Run Speed: Increase from 1.218 to 1.312
Reason: This makes Ganondorf a the same speed as Dr. Mario, which allows him to punish and follow-up better for combos.

Air Speed: Increase from .79 to .88
Reason: This slightly improves Ganondorf's horizontal recovery and neutral game. It allows Ganondorf to fully capitalize on his powerful aerials, which when combined with better aerial approach buffs would give him a better time against campers.

I think this is everything Ganon mains need and it's close to perfection.
Minor remarks:

1) Air Speed: Maybe instead of the air speed buff an air acceleration buff would help more in tearms of recovery. But any of the two would be great.

2) Grabs: While the grab size needs a buff and coming out a frame faster would be great, only 4 frames of endlag shaved of his dash/ pivot grab are probably not enough. MAybe around 6 frames? But anything little would be great.

3) Pummel: Should be atleast 4%, if not 5%. Honestly, the dead time inbetween pummels should be shortened or the dmg increased by atleast a good amount. At this state, there is no reason to pummel at all

4) Jumpsquat: I think moving it from 7 franes to 6 would help out a lot in his combo potential and give him better tools to follow opponents in the air!

Additional: UpThrow and DownThrow animations speed up so he can act a few frames faster (around 3 frames, nothing massive) would help out a ton in combo potential. Ganon isn´t a char for granted combos on all the cast, but still.

As I said, the suggestions are all great, anything of this would make many dorf mains very happy!

Question: What the point of UpSpecial angle change? Is it supposed to go more horizontal now? I´m not quite sure

 

[free33]

any votes for SH autocancel dair?

 

[Litany]

I think this is everything Ganon mains need and it's close to perfection.
Minor remarks:

1) Air Speed: Maybe instead of the air speed buff an air acceleration buff would help more in tearms of recovery. But any of the two would be great.

2) Grabs: While the grab size needs a buff and coming out a frame faster would be great, only 4 frames of endlag shaved of his dash/ pivot grab are probably not enough. MAybe around 6 frames? But anything little would be great.

3) Pummel: Should be atleast 4%, if not 5%. Honestly, the dead time inbetween pummels should be shortened or the dmg increased by atleast a good amount. At this state, there is no reason to pummel at all

4) Jumpsquat: I think moving it from 7 franes to 6 would help out a lot in his combo potential and give him better tools to follow opponents in the air!

Additional: UpThrow and DownThrow animations speed up so he can act a few frames faster (around 3 frames, nothing massive) would help out a ton in combo potential. Ganon isn´t a char for granted combos on all the cast, but still.

As I said, the suggestions are all great, anything of this would make many dorf mains very happy!

Question: What the point of UpSpecial angle change? Is it supposed to go more horizontal now? I´m not quite sure

In terms of air speed vs. acceleration, I often find myself reaching maximum air speed, even though Ganondorf has horrible air acceleration. While both Ganondorf's air speed and acceleration are horrible, some other characters share poor air acceleration such as G&W, Mewtwo, Ryu (although none of them have as poor recoveries), which is why I mentioned air speed. Either would be useful though.

While I agree by itself the grab range buff is not enough, I thought that giving Ganondorf a bit more of a reward off of his grabs would compensate for that. For myself, I've always thought of Ganondorf as a high-risk, high-reward character, so I felt that would fit his playstle more.

With Ganondorf's pummel, I settled for 4% as opposed to a higher number, because of the fact that 4% is already more damage than any other pummel. I do however, agree with a quicker pummel FAF though.

A quicker jumpsquat would be nice too, I often find myself performing jump-cancelled Up-Smashes when meaning to input short-hop Up-Airs.

Less endlag on Up and Down Throws would be nice, but I don't see it being that useful. But a good suggestion nonetheless!

Ganondorf's current Up-Special angle is what is known as the Sakurai Angle. If you don't know what that is, basically at low percents Up-Special sends opponents at a 0° angle (parallel to the ground). At higher percents it sends opponents at roughly a 45° angle (I don't know the exact number), which basically prevents moves with the Sakurai angle from being semi-spikes. The change to the angle would send opponents at a more horizontal angle (it would be a semi-spike), albeit not quite parallel to the stage but a good angle regardless.

any votes for SH autocancel dair?

While I would definitely like that, but if it could auto-cancel in a short-hop it might be a bit too powerful. While it auto-cancelled in Brawl, I've seen guaranteed footstool combos/U-Air jab locks which deal +60% damage, so I'm not sure. I feel like a Forward-Air auto-cancel would be a bit more balanced, but I wouldn't complain if Down-Air could as well (Ganondorf needs everything he can get).

 

[free33]

While I would definitely like that, but if it could auto-cancel in a short-hop it might be a bit too powerful. While it auto-cancelled in Brawl, I've seen guaranteed footstool combos/U-Air jab locks which deal +60% damage, so I'm not sure. I feel like a Forward-Air auto-cancel would be a bit more balanced, but I wouldn't complain if Down-Air could as well (Ganondorf needs everything he can get).[/QUOTE]
while that is definitely true, remember that the development team+ sakurai balances this game for the casual-competitive scene (aka for glory). when's the last time you have even seen an FG player attempt a footstool? so although that might be a bit much for the tournament scene (though honestly i don't think so because of how the rest of him is and the fact that people using those types of setups in tournament play is still rare anyway) it is definitely in the realm of possibility for patches. besides, do those setups even work with a rising dair? I have only seen them work with a landing dair.

 

[Mellos]

Oh and once you feel ready to ship your suggestions, make sure to post it on reddit, since a lot people do it lately.
Like, gathered suggestion character specific:

I've seen Duck Hunt and Bowser (https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4crb83/bowser_patch_suggestions_3_modest_buffs_are_all/ )
versions pop up latey. We need the same for Ganon, to get more people discussing!

 

[Litany]

while that is definitely true, remember that the development team+ sakurai balances this game for the casual-competitive scene (aka for glory). when's the last time you have even seen an FG player attempt a footstool? so although that might be a bit much for the tournament scene (though honestly i don't think so because of how the rest of him is and the fact that people using those types of setups in tournament play is still rare anyway) it is definitely in the realm of possibility for patches. besides, do those setups even work with a rising dair? I have only seen them work with a landing dair.

Hmm... maybe you're right. While I don't think that it's impossible to use a rising Down-Air to footstool, I'm fairly sure the timing would be very strict. I think the reason that people currently have to use a landing Down-Air is because of the landing lag and the fact that it doesn't auto-cancel. But you made a good point about the group the patches are based around.

Oh and once you feel ready to ship your suggestions, make sure to post it on reddit, since a lot people do it lately.
Like, gathered suggestion character specific:

I've seen Duck Hunt and Bowser (https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4crb83/bowser_patch_suggestions_3_modest_buffs_are_all/ )
versions pop up latey. We need the same for Ganon, to get more people discussing!

I actually don't have a Reddit account right now, but I'll definitely create one and post patch suggestions once I get some more peoples' inputs (if there isn't already a page for such a purpose)

 

[jacksonTown]

Nice list of suggestions. A slight air speed increase and a slight grab range increase and I can live with where he's at now.

 

[Hydde]

I feel Ganon is some buffs away to be a terrific monster. And im all for it. But he needs to be buffed with care because against Ganon you cant make a mistake , as a whiff could end in an early stock lost for more than 50% of the cast. Ganon hits like a truck and abd some of his moves come out surprisingly fast, making him very realiable in melee combat because. BUT , we all now Ganon has some horrid flaws.

My main gripe with Ganon is his grab game. He needs a buff here in some way. His range is what really irks me, and i dont know why he has this so bad grab range. Buffing his grab range would make him so great at dealing with so many situations. People should respect Ganon´s grab and is very sad that most of the time you cant punish a shielded attack because of the spacing created by that attack. This should be a priority buff since is his worst aspect. Adding a kill grab would be epic too, but since he has so many killing options, i dont know if this would be wise XD. But i would love it.

Like everyone mentioned... his aerial speed is pretty bad and sometimes you can get killed pretty early because the guy just cant travel much airborne outside of his recover. But i dont know if sakurai balanced him this way because they want him to be punishable when airborned because of how good is his close combat game. Still this also punishes him a lot against spammy missle players who camp ganon. Any decent player knows that he just cant go gung ho against a good ganon because the trades and punishes of ganon are devastating, so peeps camp Ganon and Ganon is very bad at dealing with speedy campers.

And this takes me to my next point... but this one is tricky. I think Ganon could have some way to defend against proyectiles...as he is really abused by them. IMO, they should led the sparta kick or his jab to reflect proyectiles, and also they should do this with LINK´s Ftilt...since this would go in hand with their lore in Ocarina of time and the bullet fights. But Ganon specially needs something like this if he will not be buffed in his aerial mobility department. I would love to be able to return proyectiles with jabs or Ftilts... so spammers would think twice before going to a corner and happily shoot at Ganon without any respect. This reflect should work ONLY against uncharged proyectiles. Things like Samus charged shot, Megaman Fsmash, Mew2´s, Cloud Limit wave, Lucario´s, Greninja´s shuriken, Corrin´s ball....all of them should not be able to be reflected.

Another proposal for the missile issue... could be to give Ganon some kind of super armour for proyectiles. This could be a low armor like 5 to 8%, that when broken, would make Ganon flinch like he normally does, and then go up again after 2 or 3 secs. This would let Ganon a least be able to get close after the first hit unflinched instead of getting locked to no end.

A personal petition of mine. I would like to be able to release early the UpTilt...obviously at the expense of explosion area size and damage. Dont get me wrong... i like this skill a lot specially in multiplayers to wreck people...and to some extend as a edguarding tool because sometimes it can surprise recovering enemies because of the weird AOE. But outside of that is pretty useless and its shame that we have this move this way because we already have a similar gimmicky move in the Ganon Punch. I feel that Ganon kill in so many ways that this 2 moves are a waste...but since the Ganon punch is a staple of him and will go nowhere.... i would like them to let us release the Uptilt early with a second Tapping of the A button. Thoughts?

My 2 cents.

 

[twistacles]

Jab needs to reflect projectiles to fit the lore

 

[Litany]

I feel Ganon is some buffs away to be a terrific monster. And im all for it. But he needs to be buffed with care because against Ganon you cant make a mistake , as a whiff could end in an early stock lost for more than 50% of the cast. Ganon hits like a truck and abd some of his moves come out surprisingly fast, making him very realiable in melee combat because. BUT , we all now Ganon has some horrid flaws.

My main gripe with Ganon is his grab game. He needs a buff here in some way. His range is what really irks me, and i dont know why he has this so bad grab range. Buffing his grab range would make him so great at dealing with so many situations. People should respect Ganon´s grab and is very sad that most of the time you cant punish a shielded attack because of the spacing created by that attack. This should be a priority buff since is his worst aspect. Adding a kill grab would be epic too, but since he has so many killing options, i dont know if this would be wise XD. But i would love it.

Like everyone mentioned... his aerial speed is pretty bad and sometimes you can get killed pretty early because the guy just cant travel much airborne outside of his recover. But i dont know if sakurai balanced him this way because they want him to be punishable when airborned because of how good is his close combat game. Still this also punishes him a lot against spammy missle players who camp ganon. Any decent player knows that he just cant go gung ho against a good ganon because the trades and punishes of ganon are devastating, so peeps camp Ganon and Ganon is very bad at dealing with speedy campers.

And this takes me to my next point... but this one is tricky. I think Ganon could have some way to defend against proyectiles...as he is really abused by them. IMO, they should led the sparta kick or his jab to reflect proyectiles, and also they should do this with LINK´s Ftilt...since this would go in hand with their lore in Ocarina of time and the bullet fights. But Ganon specially needs something like this if he will not be buffed in his aerial mobility department. I would love to be able to return proyectiles with jabs or Ftilts... so spammers would think twice before going to a corner and happily shoot at Ganon without any respect. This reflect should work ONLY against uncharged proyectiles. Things like Samus charged shot, Megaman Fsmash, Mew2´s, Cloud Limit wave, Lucario´s, Greninja´s shuriken, Corrin´s ball....all of them should not be able to be reflected.

Another proposal for the missile issue... could be to give Ganon some kind of super armour for proyectiles. This could be a low armor like 5 to 8%, that when broken, would make Ganon flinch like he normally does, and then go up again after 2 or 3 secs. This would let Ganon a least be able to get close after the first hit unflinched instead of getting locked to no end.

A personal petition of mine. I would like to be able to release early the UpTilt...obviously at the expense of explosion area size and damage. Dont get me wrong... i like this skill a lot specially in multiplayers to wreck people...and to some extend as a edguarding tool because sometimes it can surprise recovering enemies because of the weird AOE. But outside of that is pretty useless and its shame that we have this move this way because we already have a similar gimmicky move in the Ganon Punch. I feel that Ganon kill in so many ways that this 2 moves are a waste...but since the Ganon punch is a staple of him and will go nowhere.... i would like them to let us release the Uptilt early with a second Tapping of the A button. Thoughts?

My 2 cents.

I definitely agree with an increase in grab range/better throws. Because of the fact that Ganondorf's grabs are so bad, he needs to rely on pressuring shields or using Flame Choke, both of which can be rather difficult to pull off if your opponent is aware.

In terms of Ganondorf's Up-Tilt, I agree it's mostly useless. Having it be able to be released early at the expense of damage/range would be a good idea in my opinion. I could see lots of use for it competitively as a shield-breaker type move, although they might need to tone down the amount of extra shield damage it does then.

Having a move that could reflect projectiles would be great, but I feel like it would be difficult to implement without completely reworking or replacing one of his moves.

The only move that I could see being given this property is his Jab. Ganondorf's Forward-Tilt reflecting projectiles would look a bit strange to me, and none of his other moves would have much utility in doing so.

However, in patch 1.1.5 the development team increased Ganondorf's Jab speed. If this reflected projectiles, it would be one of the fastest reflectors in the game. Additionally...

Jab needs to reflect projectiles to fit the lore

If Ganondorf's Jab were to stay true to the lore, I feel like it should only be able to reflect energy-based projectiles (the ones classified as energy-based by Ness' or Lucas' PSI Magnet). When I think of the types of projectiles that it should reflect, WFT's Sun Salutation comes to mind (probably because it looks like the energy ball reflected in OoT). I'm not entirely sure that it would be gameplay balanced though.

 

[ElectroLightning]

I would love this! I'm pretty sure Bloodyknight would too...

 

[Opana]

I want better air speed more than anything

Good list

 

[King9999]

• Make ground Flame Choke untechable.
• Less endlag on ground Wiz Foot.
• Increased throw range. Just a small hitbox range increase will do
• Uthrow is a kill throw
• No hurtbox on air Wiz Foot's foot.
• 2 frames less landing lag on d-air.
• Guaranteed 2 hits upon landing d-smash in all situations where the first hit connects.
• Hitbox on bair is extended downward so it can hit smaller characters on the ground better.

 

[LifeMushroom]

I asked ZeRo what changes would benefit Ganondorf, and he said:
'faster on ground and air, better frame data, combo throw and kill throw and a good grab'

 

[WwwWario]

He opens his palm during his Jab, so Ganon should be able to Pocket projectiles with his Jab and send them out, identical to Villager's Pocket. Up Tilt should also have invincibility frames from start to finish. Also, during his Sword Taunt, it would be very nice and balanced if characters would take massive damage from touching the sword.

Haha, jokes aside now. I think his speed and grab is what he suffers from the most. Having the shortest grab in the whole game, AND having lots of end lag on it if he misses, the opponent deserves to be murdered if he hits with a grab. Pummel damage or speed buff, back throw actually becoming a kill throw, 1% buff on F Throw and 2% buff on Up Throw, as well as giving up throw less base knockback and endlag for possible follow ups on early %, but also tons more knockback growth. A speed buff would also be amazing.

 

[HeavyLobster]

+0.06 airspeed to bring him up to the 0.85 airspeed he had in Brawl
-3 frames of landing lag on Nair
+1% damage on the last hit of Dark Dive, and 10-15 frames less endlag on it on hit(I would also recommend a similar change to Falcon's Up-B)

Those are the main ones I want
I might also consider +1% damage on Ftilt and/or Uair, -1-2 frames of endlag on Jab/Dtilt, -2 frames of endlag on Fair, or making either Bthrow or Uthrow a kill throw as valuable buffs which would also be appreciated.

 

[Jotari]

Up Tilt needs the option of cancelling it in the first few frames. It's a great move but so situational and such a big commitment that will screw you if you happen to use it by mistake. Of course having it so you can release it early would be preferable but to me that would make it seem too much like a smash attack. I guess it could conceivably replace one of his smash attacks (in the next game though, not in a patch) but I personally like it being an esoteric tilt rather than a standard smash so just having the option to cancel it would please me greatly.

 

[Darkshadovv]

• Fast run speed
• Faster air speed
• 6 frame jumpsquat
• Bigger shield size
• 1 second float off double jump
  
• King Dedede's weight
  
• Bowser double jump height
• Bowser's Tough Guy armor
• Electric hitbox on forward/down tilts and neutral/back air, darkness hitbox on all smashes, forward air, and pummel/throws
  
• Intangibility on the hand/forearm of jab and Flame Choke and shin/boot of forward tilt, down tilt, down smash and neutral air.
  
• 10% damage on all hitboxes of jab. It's too weak for a heavyweight tier jab, also why the hell does this have a sourspot?
• Up tilt start-up 81-83 -> 80-87, endlag 115 -> 101, sweetspot power on sourspot, vacuum pulls enemies into explosion range instead of right next to Ganondorf
• Dash attack invincibility 1-2 -> 10-13
• Forward/up smash shield damage 0 -> 12, this thing needs to murder shields outright as it's too unsafe on shield
• Sourspot on up smash removed
  
• Thigh hitbox of down smash removed, always links reliably, endlag 63 -> 46 ala Melee
• 1.1.1 Neutral air
  
• Neutral/Back airs have lower hitbox placements to better hit grounded opponents
• Forward air Melee endlag, auto cancel, and reach, and darkness hitbox
  
• Back air Melee range, hitbox duration 10-12 -> 10-15, endlag 36 -> 29
  
• Up air endlag 32 -> 30 ala Melee
  
• Short hop auto cancel down air, this wouldn't be broken given that it's stupidly unsafe at 0%
  
• Bowser grab range
• Dash grab startup 11 -> 10, endlag 45 -> 41
• Grab resembles Flame Choke, Pummel resembles Flame Choke dark pulse, Back throw sends people into the shadow realm and ejects them behind Ganon.
  
• Pummel damage 3% -> 4%
• Bowser knockback power and Ike semi-spike angle on forward and back throw
• Mewtwo power up on up throw
  
• Back and up throw damage 12%
• Down throw launch angle 65 -> 80 ala Melee
• Super armor on air Warlock Punch
• Warlock Thrust replaced with the Dead Man's Volley, using Ocarina of Time projectile that is reflectable by all parties and gets faster and stronger with each reflect
  
• Brawl Minus cancelling on air Flame Choke, no longer causes helpless, landing lag reduced to 20 frames
  
• Longer distance and faster Flame Wave
• Flame Chain no longer passes through shielding opponents so all hits properly connect, increased knockback on the final hit
• Dark Dive Melee frame data (17% damage, 1 frame faster startup, turnabout, and increased reach on its furthest grabbox), Dark Fists's armor and horizontal distance, endlag 60 -> 35 (ending shortly after Ganondorf lets go), landing lag 30 -> 25 or 20, Sakura Angle -> 22 angle on throw, both throw and uppercut kill around 120% from the center of Final Destination OR Balanced/Minus Brawl spike angle on throw.
  
• Dark Fists' damage 6% -> 5% on hit 1, 11% -> 15% on hit 2, 17% -> 20% in total (knockback compensated)
• Dark Vault damage 4% -> 12%, kills around 150%, semi-spike angle, super armor on first vault, better vertical and horizontal distance
• Wizard's Foot Project M damage and power (17% on all hitboxes), endlag 76 -> 69, landing lag 30 -> 20, air endlag 58 -> 30, bigger landing shockwave, all hitboxes now spike on aerial opponents while retaining vertical launch angle on grounded opponents.
  
• Wizard's Dropkick damage 11% -> 12% on all hitboxes
• Wizard's Assault is now three hits of 2.5%, 2.5%, and 9%, total damage 12% -> 14% on all hitboxes, grounded shield damage 0 -> 15 or 20 so it murders shields if all hitboxes connect, forward knockback instead of behind, startup 29 -> 20, endlag 87 -> 69, air endlag matching Wizard's Foot

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

• Fast run speed
• Faster air speed
• 6 frame jumpsquat
• Bigger shield size
• 1 second float off double jump
  
• King Dedede's weight
  
• Bowser double jump height
• Bowser's Tough Guy armor
• Electric hitbox on forward/down tilts and neutral/back air, darkness hitbox on all smashes, forward air, and pummel/throws
  
• Intangibility on the hand/forearm of jab and Flame Choke and shin/boot of forward tilt, down tilt, down smash and neutral air.
  
• 10% damage on all hitboxes of jab. It's too weak for a heavyweight tier jab, also why the hell does this have a sourspot?
• Up tilt start-up 81-83 -> 80-87, endlag 115 -> 101, sweetspot power on sourspot, vacuum pulls enemies into explosion range instead of right next to Ganondorf
• Dash attack invincibility 1-2 -> 10-13
• Forward/up smash shield damage 0 -> 12, this thing needs to murder shields outright as it's too unsafe on shield
• Sourspot on up smash removed
  
• Thigh hitbox of down smash removed, always links reliably, endlag 63 -> 46 ala Melee
• Neutral/Back airs have lower hitbox placements to better hit grounded opponents
• Forward air Melee endlag, auto cancel, and reach, and darkness hitbox
  
• Back air hitbox duration 10-12 -> 10-15, endlag 36 -> 29 ala Melee
• Up air endlag 32 -> 30 ala Melee
  
• Short hop auto cancel down air, this wouldn't be broken given that it's stupidly unsafe at 0%
  
• Bowser grab range
• Pummel damage 3% -> 4%
• Bowser knockback power and Ike semi-spike angle on forward and back throw
• Mewtwo power up on up throw
  
• Back and up throw damage 12%
• Down throw launch angle 65 -> 80 ala Melee
• Super armor on air Warlock Punch
• Warlock Thrust replaced with the Dead Man's Volley, using Ocarina of Time projectile that is reflectable by all parties and gets faster and stronger with each reflect
  
• Brawl Minus cancelling on air Flame Choke, no longer causes helpless
  
• Longer distance and faster Flame Wave
• Flame Chain no longer passes through shielding opponents so all hits properly connect, increased knockback on the final hit
• Dark Dive Melee frame data (17% damage, 1 frame faster startup, turnabout, and increased reach on its furthest grabbox), Balanced/Minus Brawl spike angle, Dark Fists's armor and horizontal distance, endlag 60 -> 35 (ending shortly after Ganondorf lets go), landing lag 30 -> 25 or 20, both throw and uppercut kill around 120% from the center of Final Destination.
  
• Dark Fists' damage 6% -> 5% on hit 1, 11% -> 15% on hit 2, 17% -> 20% in total (knockback compensated)
• Dark Vault damage 4% -> 12%, kills around 150%, semi-spike angle, super armor on first vault, better vertical and horizontal distance
• Wizard's Foot Project M damage and power (17% on all hitboxes), endlag 76 -> 69, landing lag 30 -> 20, air endlag 58 -> 30, bigger landing shockwave
• Wizard's Dropkick damage 11% -> 12% on all hitboxes
• Wizard's Assault is now three hits of 2.5%, 2.5%, and 9%, total damage 12% -> 14% on all hitboxes, grounded shield damage 0 -> 15 or 20 so it murders shields if all hitboxes connect, forward knockback instead of behind, startup 29 -> 20, endlag 87 -> 69, air endlag matching Wizard's Foot

I think that even if Ganon got all that you listed he may still get destroyed by top tiers, still cool though.

 

[Darkshadovv]

I think that even if Ganon got all that you listed he may still get destroyed by top tiers, still cool though.

I'd expect him to jump over at least E/F tier with that kind of kit.

Adding a kill grab would be epic too, but since he has so many killing options, i dont know if this would be wise XD. But i would love it.

This wouldn't make Ganon broken one bit. Bowser has around the same amount of killing moves that Ganon has, plus all his throws can kill.

 

[HeavyLobster]

This wouldn't make Ganon broken one bit. Bowser has around the same amount of killing moves that Ganon has, plus all his throws can kill.

Also it's a lot harder for Ganon to actually get grabs than Bowser.

 

[realmwars]

Ganon's up-tilt needs to cover the entire screen and have heavy armor.

 

[Crimson51]

I know I'm beating a dead horse on this topic, but in Twilight Princess, Link's height was recorded as 5'8". Ganondorf's model's height was exactly twice Link's. This puts Ganondorf at a monstrous 11 feet 4 inches tall. The average male height to arm length (measured from top of shoulder to tip of the middle finger) ratio is 1/2.3, bringing Ganon's arm length to nearly FIVE FEET. So WHY can Kirby and Puff with their stubby little arms grab just fine, but Ganon can't grab anyone unless they're practically hugging him?

That aside, I agree that the landing lag on Nair should be decreased, though I'd say it should be enough to guarantee some follow-ups like Dash Attack, d-tilt, Flame Choke or Wizard's Foot out of the second hit at low percents (I'm talking REALLY low and/or with poor DI for d-tilt, though). At middle percents, first hit nair could link safely into d-tilt (against grounded), u-air (against aerial after fast-falling), or Flame Choke/Wizards Foot. For these changes a nerf to damage and knockback will be in order, but the follow-ups will be worth it. We have u-air for edgeguards anyways.

Another potential couple of buffs should be changes to his throws. He needs a kill throw along the lines of Mewtwo's u-throw or Ness's b-throw. I think either f-throw or u-throw should be his kill throw, just because they just look like they really hurt. Also, I would give a new angle to d-throw and decrease its knockback/endlag so that you could follow up with d-tilt, u-air or dash attack (DI dependent) at low-mid percents, and f-air, Wizard's Foot, and Flame Choke at mid-high percents (also DI dependent).

Also, Increase the hitbox size on B-air. It shouldn't be this hard to hit someone standing completely still.

 

[Theosmeo]

https://www.nintendo.com/consumer/network/en_na/network_status.jsp We might get a patch this tuesday, make sure to send Sakurai lots of nudes asking for buffs