Fox's jab lock / tumble lock

[YGK]

I've been playing around with Fox's Fair spike into jab lock combo, and I'm having trouble coming up with an especially useful implementation of it, so I was hoping someone here could help me workshop it a bit, as well as get a handle on the % ranges it should work in.

To be clear: I'm referring to the jab lock combo all characters can perform some variant of after your opponent misses a tech, not the double jab cancel combo unique to fox.

For those of you not familiar with the principles involved, the youtube channel "My Smash Corner" has an amazing video detailing the fundamentals of this combo:

As pointed out in the video, if you fast fall cancel Fox's Fair near the ground before the last hit, it spikes the opponent, giving them a very small window to tech, if they miss the tech Fox can follow up with Ftilt or a sour Nair to initiate the jab lock (I don't think there's enough time to use a sour Nair after the Fair spike, but Nair can be used to set up the combo when the opponent misses a tech in other situations)

The setup for this combo really isn't that hard, I may make a list of all the ways to set up Fair sometime, but if you know your way around Fox in this game then you're already aware of just how easy it is to hit with this move. The tricky part (for me) is initiating the jab lock afterwards; over 70% I seem to deal too much knock back with Ftilt and my opponent lands standing, though I might just be mistiming it (I'm also wondering if the knock back properties of fox's 3 different Ftilt angles effect the situation significantly).

I'm still working out a lot of the basic stuff right now, I'll add details as I find them but I'm guessing there are some players around who have already done some testing with this and I'd love to see what others have come up with. My ultimate goal is to find the most effective variants of the combo, (one that maximizes damage, one for maximum vertical knock back, one for maximum lateral knock back, etc.), and work out what % range they work in. Personally, I think it would be very useful to know what the max % your opponent can be at when you start the combo, what sequence results in the most time to charge an up smash, and which characters will die to it at that point.

I'll be testing things out for a while yet tonight, but I'm also drinking a few beers while I do it, so I may not be all that productive (or I may make a really excited post in a few hours claiming I've broken the game wide open with my "mad skillz")

 

[Timbers]

ftilt stops working after a certain percent as you mentioned. iirc the angled ftilts start sending characters into a tumble state at different percents, so it may be similar for jab lock properties. this is honestly not an option I normally consider outside of low % dthrows. I've liked following up jab locks with DA. It's not only a lingering hitbox, but it's also one of Fox's best combo starters.

Does late nair jab lock at all percents? I wouldn't expect it to, but I admittedly don't try to setup jab locks at mid/high percents. There's a lot of times that (late) nair can setup missed techs, and you could jab lock them with another late nair perhaps...but I think the most you could get off of this is the late nair damage (3-4%), because Fox can follow missed techs with DA/usmash easily anyways. It probably really isn't worth setting up in percents that you can't ftilt lock.

 

[YGK]

It occurred to me that on any character vulnerable to fox's double jab cancel, you can end the jab lock by transitioning into another true combo. Double jabbing the opponents getup should open up some more possibilities for extending the combo, and I'm not just thinking about the characters who fox can already 0-death with his jab cancel; There are several characters who can generally escape repeated double jabs, but jab -> jab -> Usmash is still guaranteed on them for certain % ranges. This alone probably isn't much better than the partially charged up smash it replaces, but if you can get more than one set of jabs in it may be worth it (even characters that can "easily" escape fox's jabs will usually take 2-3 sets of jabs before escaping). Any applications this has will be very dependent on spacing, character, and percentage, so I don't think I'll be bothering to look into it too much, but anyone whose already familiar with the finer points of jab canceling should be able to make good use of the setup.

Right now I'm testing against diddy, he's just below average weight so he's a good point of reference, and it would be really great if fox could convert a mid% jab lock into a kill on such a dominant character. (double jab is already guaranteed on him, but that may get patched out at some point, and you don't need to be frame perfect for this to work). I'm still gradually raising the percentage, but here's what I've got so far:

fox and diddy both at 60% damage, stage is battlefield;
sour nair pushes diddy off platform, diddy is now at 66%
follow up with another SH sour nair, diddy @ 72%
dash into charge up smash, release at about 2/3 full charge, diddy @ 91%, flies rather high
[I wonder if jab->jab->Usmash is ever guaranteed on diddy...]

I'm working on improving this, and trying to find the peak damage where it still works, but I'm already learning some important elements of this combo. It looks like Nair should work to lock the opponent until 70-80 %, but it is difficult to land more than one since you need to let the Nair go sour before you hit them again, and fox has poor aerial mobility once the attack is out there. If I hit diddy with a normal Ftilt when he's at 66%, he lands on his feet, but up and down angled Ftilt seem to keep him in the lock (not sure if he's really locked or if the training mode AI just misses the chance to respond). Either version of Ftilt results in too much knock back for fox to follow up before the getup animation starts, but there should be enough time to get the up smash in.

I've mostly been testing on the 3ds version in training mode, which has it's limits. One major thing I haven't tested yet is the effect stale moves will have on the combo; training mode turns off the stale moves mechanic (I think it also turns off rage, but I'm not sure). I theory you could intentionally stale your Nair and Ftilt to make the combo work at somewhat higher damage, or to increase the number of tilts you can use to move the opponent across the stage a bit and limit their recovery options. I also don't have a C stick, on the 3ds, so I haven't been able to test pivot tilts as a means of extending the combo.

At this point we know fox can use this combo to put 31% damage on a diddy at 60%, I think there's a little more damage to be squeezed out of this setup, but it gives us some idea of what the damage output and operational ranges should be for these sort of combos. Based on my testing, a character just slightly heavier (or with a larger hurt box) should be vulnerable to the same combo above, with another SH Nair thrown in. With stale moves I can see some form of this combo working as high as 80% on mid-weight characters.

Finally, I've done most of my testing on battlefield so far, because it's easy to set up the platform tumble to start the combo, but it has a slightly higher ceiling than FD / omega stages. Diddy went a good ways off screen after my up smash, I'm not sure what, if any DI the training mode AI was providing (I think it does give some DI, since it always tries to recover), but I'm hopeful that with the right combination of rage, stale Nair / Ftilt, and a fresh up smash, on a stage with a lower ceiling, it may be possible to convert a missed tech into a KO around 60-70%. I'm guessing there will be a way to DI out of this contrived scenario, and your opponent will be able to see the up smash coming and react accordingly, but it's still worth looking into.

P.S. I'm now fantasizing about using the first hit of Fair to kill the second duck on Duck Hunt, initiating a jab lock with the meteor effect, then poking my opponent to center stage just in time for the dog to appear and bring us closer to the ceiling.

 

[DavemanCozy]

F-air spike near the ledge is probably the most effective setup, imo, whether you catch them while they're trying to make it back onstage or if you do it off a ledge-jump (the video shows this) to force them down in the ground. At low percents, this can be done off a down throw too.

As far as pushing off platforms: N-air, F-tilt, B-air (low percents to not knock them away) pushes them off platforms. Another reason why I think Battlefield is one of Fox's best stages.

KO'ing off the top at 70% isn't likely, unless you're talking about a U-smash in a top platform and have enough time to charge it. This would work, in that case, though setting up a spike that high isn't easy. Something to think about for sure.

 

[YGK]

I agree that a vertical KO at 70% is rather unlikely, even on lighter characters. Initially I was hoping perfect execution with stale Nairs would let us run the combo at higher percents, but based on my testing so far it seems like it will be difficult to combo anyone but heavyweights at higher percentages. I'm still not certain what the upper limits are on this combo, and it's difficult for me to test since I don't have a testing partner, but from what I've seen so far this combo can be quite useful, taking an opponent from 30-60% to 70-90%. If you catch someone with a DA -> Utilt string, then catch them with a jab lock, you can go from 0% to near kill range very quickly.

I've taken a bit of a break from working on this, but when I feel like digging into it again I'll be testing on some larger/heavier characters since the Fair setup is hard to land on Diddy (he's so short you have to catch him in a short hop or setup off a throw).

 

[DavemanCozy]

Note also that if you push an opponent off a platform and you land on the platform, it's faster to jump off and hit them with weak n-air when they land below to put them in tumble.

Percentages seem to vary radically among the cast: Ganon seems to get locked at ~55% with F-tilt, while Pikachu gets knocked too far back after ~38%. Seems to also be weight dependent, so I'm assuming that heavier opponents stay locked significantly later than lighter ones.

These percents are with F-tilt, I did not test N-air thoroughly. Whatever the case, 55% is too low to lead into a KO move, so it may be best to use this to our advantage and rack up damage instead.

 

[YGK]

Thanks for the information. In my own testing I definitely get the feeling that weight plays a big factor, but I wonder if knockback angle and/or character height may factor in as well. Either way there will be different effective ranges for every character, so really exploring the possibilities of this combo will take some time.

Does anyone know off hand how Bowser's "tough guy" mechanic effects this? I may do some testing later, it could make him highly susceptible to this, though getting the setup for it my be more challenging.