Fox punish game on low traction characters e.g Luigi

[lorg]

Recently I went to a tournament and struggled against punishing these characters, when I dair or nair into shine they get sent so far away it is impossible to follow up, but when I try anything else I get crouch-cancelled and down-smashed and for characters such as Luigi and ICs grabs are also ineffective. So is the best thing to do simply nair/dair shine then return to neutral?

 

[LMN8]

So in these situations drill-grab can be much more effective as a combo starter than drill-shine. Another thing you can do is do double aerial strings. so drill-bair, nair-bair, etc. Shine isnt completely useless though. characters like luigi can get sent off stage from one shine depending on where he is standing. This can lead into shine spikes if you are faster than your opponent. Also on characters where upthrow-upair doesnt work uptilt-upair normally does in its place.

 

[AscendantAquila]

You have to remember that edgeguarding is still part of the punish game. Double aerial strings work and against characters like Luigi, do later aerials to try to combat Crouch cancelling, plus they combo better. Drill-shine is very useful towards the edge of the stage in against Luigi because of the fact that Luigi is forced off and is pretty easy to edgeguard after a shine.

Against ICs and Luigi, once they get to higher percents jab can lead into followups like usmash, bair, etc. experiment with the followups from it at different percents to see what the best punish you can get is. Be aware that this can be CCd and is also unsafe on shield which will get you punished.

Against ICs specifically, you can waveshine after a drill and running shine afterwards to try to kill Nana, although it is not a true combo. However you can mitigate this by drilling and positioning yourself so that shine splits the two up and then you can just running shine out of waveshines to kill Nana. Look at videos of Chillin, Mango, and Redd against them to see how they punish and kill Nana because all 3 are really adept and getting quick kills on Nana (I'm tired and those are the first 3 that came to my mind against ICs so there is probably more Foxes that are super good at punishing).

On floaties where Uthrow->Uair doesn't work you can opt to read a double jump and try to uair them out of it or against Luigi try to bait a Nair out and punish. With these characters even if Uthrow doesn't directly lead into a combo it still puts them in a bad position and you can just shark them from underneath and punish them trying to land or punish a bad double jump out.

 

[TheCrisp]

A cool trick I learned that works on Luigi is shine->side-b. If you do it fast enough it can combo and setup for an up air if they di badly. Not exactly an optimal punish but its a cool mixup...

 

[AscendantAquila]

Shine->illusion is a poor mixup at best, there is almost no reward and if the Luigi sdis the shine, the illusion doesn't hit and punishes the landing lag. Honestly there really isn't any point to using it outside of a high risk low reward mixup that only really nets a few percentage.

 

[TheCrisp]

Yeah I definitely don't think it's something people should use a lot and it's definitely not good in a traditional sense, but it's there and catches people off guard so it's worth knowing about at least.

 

[XVI]

shine illusion is such a dank combo on luigi. I highly recommend it.

 

[Dominus Felis]

Here we go, I'm making a detailed flow chart on grab follow-ups for Luigi.

1. Pummel once or twice, d-throw. If hits tech, go to 4, if misses tech, go to 2
2. Up-smash (may require pivot) if it will kill, If not go to 3
3. Up-tilt (may require pivot)
4. Tech roll go to 4, tech in place go to 6
4. At or above kill percent for up-smash, up-smash. If below, find 5
5. Running d-tilt, then try to snag their landing with any of your tools really
6. Re-grab on reaction to this

Now Samus.

1. Pummel once or twice, d-throw, missed tech go to 2. Tech go to 4
2. Up-smash (again, may need a pivot) if they are above kill percent. If not go to 3
3. Up-tilt, (may require pivot)
4. Reaction re-grabs until 5 will kill, or they intentionally miss tech.
5. Waveshine up-smash

 

[AscendantAquila]

If we had perfect reactions I would say go for this, but honestly D-throw tech chasing is pretty hard to react to because it is so quick that it's pretty difficult to react to the DI plus the tech options. I recommend going for it in spurts and if you don't feel that you are getting much out of it, throwing off the ledge or U-throwing for position is probably the better option.

Edit: Luigi has a pretty good tech roll and I'm pretty sure it's humanly impossible to D-throw tech chase him with any consistency.