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Forward Throw, Bouncing Fish & DI

FatalVindicator

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 7, 2015
Messages
7
I have yet to attend any tournies, so my experiences have been against friends and very local "competitive" players. In these noob settings, I've noticed that I struggle to consistently land bouncing fish after forward throws.

Almost all of the players I face seem to DI up/toward me, and my bouncing fish is too short. Other times they are able to air dodge just in time.

Whenever I watch high level play, opponents seem to DI away and eat bouncing fish. Why don't more players DI up/toward and why might my opponents have time to air dodge? Does bouncing fish need to be buffered at the end of the throw? I hope someone can enlighten me and help me break out of this novice level of play.
 

PierceHardwood

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 6, 2015
Messages
6
FThrow to BF is only guaranteed up to a certain percentage, less so if they DI up and towards. (Unless you're fighting Roy, which then seems to work forever.)

Yes, you should buffer BF as soon as you see the FThrow animation start.

Here are situational examples:

Every character except Jigglypuff, 0-10%, no DI/DI away: FThrow, buffer BF and keep pressing B to make the kick come out early. Guaranteed every time.

Almost every character, 0%, up/toward DI: FThrow, buffer BF and then immediately hold back on the stick and keep pressing B to make the kick come out early. Sometimes you'll have to buffer a short hop before BF to get more verticality. But the key is holding it back with the control stick and making the kick come out early.

Most characters, 30%, no DI/DI away: FThrow, buffer BF and then hold the direction toward your opponent and keep pressing B.

Most characters, 30%, up/toward DI: You might be able to do a short or full hop held back shortened BF, but you should probably just go for aerials.
Most characters, 30-50%, no DI (or sometimes DI away): FThrow, buffer short hop then perform BF at a 45degree angle (:GCDL:,:GCDR:) and then immediately the full on direction (:GCL:, :GCR:) and keep spamming B. The jump gets you higher, the directional influence makes you go farther, and spamming B makes the kick come out earlier. They might not have the time to airdodge. If they do manage an airdodge, you could try doing a rising double jump aerial to hit them anyway.

High level players are probably in the habit of DIing away because eating true combos at early percentages is probably not as bad as eating true combos at kill percentages.

Sheik is great because she has options to easily put people in different 50/50 situations almost regardless of % ranges. If your opponents are constantly going for up/in DI after FThrow at early percentages and you see that you're just not getting conversions with BF, switch up your game. They're in the habit of doing this and they're leaving themselves open for full hop double Fairs, Nair, and Uair.

If you find them airdodging your fast out of throw combos, this is a good sign. They're spamming/buffering it. It means you can snag earlier kills by doing FThrow, dash in, charge Usmash between 70% and 90% (they airdodge right above you and then slowly float right into your charged sweet spot Usmash); or DThrow into FH/double jump Vanish between 100% and 130% or so. If you get past 130%, you can again Fthrow, full hop, wait for air dodge, and then BF. Encourage them to airdodge, it leads to their deaths.
 
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ArikadoSD

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Fthrow > BF can work until surprisingly high percents, it all depends on Sheik's rage and the opponent's character. Floaties don't get combo'd as easily.

If they DI into you though, that's a free uair/nair.
 

FatalVindicator

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 7, 2015
Messages
7
Thanks for the replies. I'm gonna lab it up to practice buffering BF. Luckily I play twice a week with my friends, so I'll start practicing these techniques/inputs against them. I'll report back next week after practicing. Thanks again
 

ArikadoSD

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honestly it's a loooot simpler than most people think. Just fthrow and then buffer bf and release the hitbox early. When their percents get higher you might need to buffer jump then interrupt it with bf. Angling BF depends on their DI, and anyone can easily react to their DI. You can also, most of the time, gauge whether BF will hit them or not and decide whether to do it or go for something a bit more guaranteed, but this is at like 80%+.
 
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PierceHardwood

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 6, 2015
Messages
6
Exactly what Arikado said. You'll get a feel over time for it.

As a more Melee-esque solution, you could also mix up their DI by going for backthrows and downthrows, though you won't get as many combo options.
 

FatalVindicator

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 7, 2015
Messages
7
After labbing it up for a while I already feel much more confident landing the combo. Unfortunately I'll have to wait until next week to test against players, and therefore DI reactions.

Are lighter characters like Ness able to DI and jump out even close to 0%? If so, what are B&Bs in those MUs?
 

ArikadoSD

the cream of the crop
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After labbing it up for a while I already feel much more confident landing the combo. Unfortunately I'll have to wait until next week to test against players, and therefore DI reactions.

Are lighter characters like Ness able to DI and jump out even close to 0%? If so, what are B&Bs in those MUs?
No. This combo is guaranteed on every single character at 0%. Probably wouldn't work so well on Jiggs after the 1st or 2nd time tho.
 

PierceHardwood

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 6, 2015
Messages
6
FThrow>BF doesn't work on Jigglypuff even at 0% with no DI. You absolutely have to buffer a SH, and I don't even think it's guaranteed.
 

Danimal197

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
77
If you read their DI you can usually land f-throw to bfish on most non-floaties until 60% or so.
 
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