Fludd-based neutral and kill set-ups (Tested Theorycraft atm)

[DunnoBro]

I'm sure there was and is talk about how fludd can aid in kill set-ups and neutral due to the OoS options available to mario while in it. I think I've taken a new look at it and want to try rationally explaining the applications I believe are there.

Neutral:

Depending on opponent percent, your rage, and the character's gravity/fall speed, it seems like even extremely lightly charged fludds can provide the decent to superb frontal coverage mario so desperately needs.

Contrary to what you might think, I believe a fully charged fludd in neutral is awful and should be avoided. Full fludd is good for gimping but bad for general bad situations since it just sends them too far and makes it easy for them to react to your movements. Ideally, you want them to just be barely above the ground or ledge.

This makes landing awkward for most characters and if they jump and you keep fludding they can die, or if they try to land you have killing options too still. Which is why uncharged fludd is so important.

Your best neutral options with fludd are your normal neutral options really. SH fireball, nair, dair. Bair if you're facing that way, though in my experience fludd fills the stuffing role of bair.

In general, you want to cancel fludd with shield asap if the opponent isn't approaching at that very moment. If they are, you try stuffing with fludd. Otherwise, jump OOS with an aerial or fireball. Maybe SJP if you need a panic button though I don't see the use except maybe for a guaranteed punish.

You can also roll or grab

Kill set-ups:

This mainly applies on their ledge get-ups or by the ledge in general. Your options are as follows

1: Punish landing aerials or opponents trying to get over you by Canceling Fludd with shield jump canceled usmash.
1a: Disjoints like cloud and rosalina's landing aerials need to be shielded and dsmashed (It's more reliable than grabbing and kills better here).

2: Punish opponents too high for usmash with either sh uair or fh uair. You will need a double stick method to do this consistently but it DOES true combo into kill combos. (Uair > Dair and Uair > Uair > Upb) Just recognize you have to connect the upair while rising, not near the apex of your jump. Hence why double sticking is so important.

3: Punish opponents even higher with double jump uair, it won't kill until late but it's something. If they air dodge, punish with fludd again. If they ledge jumped, if you get them off you can kill them since they still haven't been hit or landed.

4: If they are about to grab the ledge, fludd again to try to keep them from grabbing too quickly. If they try to recover again too soon, not realizing they can't sweetspot yet due to technically being hit by fludd, fludd them again. Be prepared to cape for good measure. Dash attack, and ftilt are also very helpful tools.

Ledge set-ups:

I'm still working on this, but I think I got a pretty good flowchart now.

Set-up Start: Position yourself just in front of the roll spawn point and start charging fludd. Whenever you see the opponent's model move, you can let go of fludd.

Fludd does cover all options except the hang. Or it can. (Depending on the charge and how much fludd pushes you back, it can get roll too. It doesn't actually need you to be in front of the roll point though for some reason)

The opponent can also buffer shield on standard get-up. But you can still kill them off that, which I'll go into when I get more specific.

Overall, these are just really good positions. Especially at lower percents, but at kill percents you need to start making reads.

Ledge Jump: To be honest, I think you can keep doing the same thing to punish this in most mus until kill percent since they HAVE to land or regrab. So don't worry too much.

Edit: Actually, whenever the opponent is around this point I think SJP is the best option since you get to grab the ledge. It doesn't kill but it sets up for a really nice edgeguard with a fludd charge if they have no jump. You can pretty much follow most characters down for bair walls, try to drag them down with dair, and then try to stage spike with SJP. Very ideal and universal edgeguard set-up.

Ledge Roll: When charging fludd, cancel with a charged usmash.

Standard get-up + Buffered shield: Once the opponent starts making a habit of this, buffer roll once you see them standard get-up while you were charging fludd. If they buffered shield, you should be able to get your ledge bthrow or ledge dthrow combos if bthrow isn't killing yet.

Edit: Actually, I believe it's as simple as a 50/50. Instead of backrolling, decide between a pivot grab or a usmash. Usmash covers roll, jump, and other oos options due to invincibility and pivot grab covers shield. At lower percents you can just sh/fh (depending on char height) uair instead of usmash. And remember, mario's dthrow combos better while facing into the stage too. So with his pivot slide, even if you think your combos are gone with bad di for bthrow and ledge dthrow mechanics you may have some kill confirms. I'll look into this more in-depth.

Ledge hang: If they hung while you fludded, a buffered dash attack can still get them due to no invincibility unless they rolled. It won't kill them but it's something. Next time they're around the ledge at kill percent, sh fire ball over the ledge and cape into the ledge for a trump. It's very quick, and even if you don't get the trump the fireball and keep them offstage for you.

Furthermore, unless they rolled again a rising ledge uair can kill confirm on their ledge jump and standard get-up. (It's the aforementioned rising uair confirms)

Though, it's kind of hard to get the rising uair on some shorter standard get-ups so you should probably space a dair behind them for a bthrow frame trap regardless of if they shield or not.

Misc:

To avoid getting projectile stuffed, throw out sh cape from fludd charge every now and then. Buffer dair just because you get a nice landing hitbox that true combos into grab or fsmash if cape hit because their di got screwed by cape.

(As stated earlier, this is pretty much only feasible with a shoulder jump)

IMPORTANT: ANGLE FLUDD UPWARD, NOT DOWN. You want them as high as possible, taking longer to land/grab the ledge.

Also charge it as little as possible. You want them close enough to follow up. It should be able to just barely push people off the ledge and that's it. Spam this small charge until they burn their jump or take another punishable option

 

[Fluttershy]

Might need a visual representation when the testing is finished since its kinda confusing on paper though with my constant use of almost never using Fludd in a match this could help me with trying to utilize it more if I can get it to work.. but first I need to find out what I did with smash

 

[DunnoBro]

Might need a visual representation when the testing is finished since its kinda confusing on paper though with my constant use of almost never using Fludd in a match this could help me with trying to utilize it more if I can get it to work.. but first I need to find out what I did with smash

I'm making one for ledge coverage since it's the most universal. In general, fludd only has appplications in neutral against characters that use spaced aerials as part of their neutral since it makes them automatically unsafe and forces them to use a jump or get hit.

I'm also finding that fludding with your back to an opponent has a surprising amount of options. If you see them dashing toward you, you can be sure they aren't going to attack since they know it's shield cancellable. They're likely going to grab which usmash will beat. If they shield, backrolling will pressure that too.

It also seems to be the best landing option when you failed to combo, since it provides both frontal coverage and gives incentive for the opponent to want to be above you. Letting you cancel into usmash/uair/bair if they get too close.

 

[DunnoBro]

After playing some fast fallers, it doesn't seem like angled up fludd is always optimal. Fox specifically. He falls like a freaking rock when it's angled down, the difference is noticeable. It may be specific to him since he has far and way the fastest fall speed but yea.

Angled up would still be better when you want to kill him after he recovers, but it pretty much demands a jump from him if he gets sent offstage. Upangle and no angle let him sideb to ledge for free, downangle demands a jump first even from neutral.

Also, due to the mechanics of ledge invincibility there may be another kill set-up with dash attack. The amount of ledge invincibility you get is determined by how long it's been since you touched the stage + your %. The higher your damage, the less invincibility.

Fludd pushing people off JUST as they retouched the stage and force them to grab the ledge gives them the least invincibility possible.

Dash attack stage spikes if they hang or drop. Also hits them if they standard or jump, but it doesn't true combo into anything at kill percents, and if you did it right with the inward hitbox they're back onstage. Usmash kills them if they roll or jump(the characters i tested anyway. I'm a little iffy since usmash is so far from roll point but the back hit box is so low, it must be intended). There is almost NO invincibility at high % in this situation.

Just be sure to buffer it with c-stick attack, it's veeerry hard to time and space it directly out of fludd without that.

Down-angle fsmash also works less consistently if you need to make a read. It only lingers 2-frames, doesn't cover roll (though you can still punish that with utilt/ftilt), but they have more invincibility to play with at the mid-percents it kills at so they tend to hang just long enough for it to work.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think I got it, when expecting to hit an opponent on the ground, angle it down to get the ledge set-up. When expecting to hit an aerial opponent, angle it up to keep them in bad position.

If you planned to hit someone in the air but it turned out to be grounded, that's likely because they DI'd out. So angling down ASAP would've made them go much further.

You should also mix up the angles in general if you're finding the opponent is getting out of the traps too easily.

 

[DunnoBro]

Actually, I think the new ledge killing ledge game is as follows:

Use up fludd as soon as it's obvious the opponent may have to grab the ledge: When they do, start charging.

Ledge jumps: Just keep charging, make it seem safe to land then cancel into shield when they get close enough to you. If you no they have no disjoints or ways to challenge usmash at that range then do it, otherwise hold shield and usmash/dsmash depending where they land.

Keeping the fludd charging is what makes the trap work, people don't wanna land in front of you and feel safe hitting you. And canceling into usmash lets you cover a LOT of ground with killing options. Bair/Uair are mainly there when you still need to do damage.

Ledge roll: Just cancel into usmash. Could also go for a grab or try for dtilt/dthrow if you want damage though.

Ledge hang: Full Jump Fireball, if it hits go back to charging fludd, release it if the try to recover too early and can't sweetspot. If they standard get-up in that time, fall with dair into dsmash on hit. Even if they got up quick, dair, at this spacing dair will shield lock into a turnaround grab. If they roll, fall with dair again, weave away from them a bit so you can get the usmash if they pop out that way. Otherwise, dsmash.

Standard get-up: This is the tricky one. I think I'm figuring it out, though. Just keep fludding them until they start shielding. It has Then, keep spamming fludd (just make sure to charge it the bare minimum it can be charged otherwise it can't push people off) Until they start shielding or take other options.

Once they start shielding, start charging fludd but cancel into a short hop in place. You now try for a 50/50.

If you think they plan on sitting in shield: Fall and space dair so that you'd land behind their shield, so either it pokes/hits and you get dsmash, or it shield locks for a turnaround grab.

If you think they plan on rolling: Just land and wait so you can usmash, if they didn't then fludd.

If they jump out of shield or dash while you were short hopping, just fludd. Often their momentum will freeze right in front of you, letting you get a dsmash. (Most reliable as it's your quickest, highest priority move and it beats grabs often, though there may be situations shield/jab/spot dodge are more optimal)

Notes: Some characters are hard/impossible to dsmash or fsmash, either because of ledge hang or the way their upbs hit the ledge. And in general people will try to mix you up with the potential of high recoveries, so it's best to stay in spacing for the dash attack stage spike.

The reason spamming fludd on a ledge shielding opponent works at least in theory is because since fludd isn't hitting the shield, they still suffer shield drop frames. So many characters don't have the mobility to get past fludd mario at higher percent at the ledge without taking a risk of dying.

 

[moofpi]

Dunnobro this work is godlike. I've always been of the mindset that no move is useless, so I've just always used my fludd. I use it in neutral too, since most of the game is spacing. I've never been able to find a way to use uncharged fludd for anything useful besides deflecting projectiles, so this is great. You keep saying use the bare minimum charge, does the weakest fludd charge have an actual push to it more than partial charge? Cause that's nuts.

 

[DunnoBro]

Dunnobro this work is godlike. I've always been of the mindset that no move is useless, so I've just always used my fludd. I use it in neutral too, since most of the game is spacing. I've never been able to find a way to use uncharged fludd for anything useful besides deflecting projectiles, so this is great. You keep saying use the bare minimum charge, does the weakest fludd charge have an actual push to it more than partial charge? Cause that's nuts.

Honestly all charges of fludd are useful except absolutely no charge as it's unsafe on actual push, has very little range, and can't even get people off the ledge.

I'm also starting to think full charge is bad, I'm finding pretty much no situation full charge actually enables a gimp. If mario could do it from super deep thus get people in the dropzone sure, but it's usually above stage and forcing out jumps. All fludd can do that.

There's a lot of mindgames while charging fludd in neutral. People know you can shield cancel, so if your back is to them they might grab. Shield Jump Cancel Usmash beats this, and some attacks.

You can also roll, spot dodge, or bair to be more sensible.

If facing the opponent, i usually cancel into sh fireballs. But I'm trying to utilize sh uair out of them.

SH uair stuffs aerial approaches, and lets you land with another aerial. Letting you approach, essentially. It even sets up for the combo hitbox of dair and reverse hit of uair (which also kill confirms better)

I haven't done it much yet, but ideally you should be able to run up to someone's face... Charge fludd, then cancel into uair. The uair goes mostly straight up, so unless you went right up to them or they dashed/jumped in right then, it doesn't seem likely to hit. SH uair does hit most grounded opponents when buffered perfectly with the double stick method though.

The dair however crosses up shields and can let you empty land for grabs.

I'm just curious as to what kind of options the opponent will take when i go charge fludd in their face. That said, with uair > dair crosses up shields and fludd making people want to sit in shield or lose stage control... This could be a good neutral option.

You retain a frontal hitting hitbox to gain stage control with if they aren't approaching, and it lets you use mario's best tools. His shield, grab, and aerials. Mario generally approaches by shield dashing anyway.

 

[moofpi]

Yeah, I could see it being a minor mix up to run up shield. One thing I still stand by for fully charged fludd is a great escape if you're being juggled and can't land. It launches you further backwards and if you aim at the opponent it will either push them back or keep them from approaching your landing.

Fludd works better on characters with low traction right? I think it does, I use it in the Luigi match up to piss them off because it's so easy. I can't really think of other low traction characters right now. Greninja?

Did you ever get to play around with Mario back in the scalding fludd or HP fludd days? Now that was fun.

 

[DunnoBro]

Yeah, I could see it being a minor mix up to run up shield. One thing I still stand by for fully charged fludd is a great escape if you're being juggled and can't land. It launches you further backwards and if you aim at the opponent it will either push them back or keep them from approaching your landing.

Fludd works better on characters with low traction right? I think it does, I use it in the Luigi match up to piss them off because it's so easy. I can't really think of other low traction characters right now. Greninja?

Honestly I think fludd is a better reset tool at any charge. You give up positioning too when you use full. You also can't recover when using full.

Traction and gravity effects it, not 100% though.

Also, did some testing... If they standard get-up, SH Uair > Dair seems to cover all the options most consistently.

The uair WILL STUFF an approach or jump into the stage, and can kill confirm into dair or uair > uair > upb. The dair can then be used to hit an opponent still in shield, jabbing, or even rolling.

If they roll, it true combos into usmash this way. Otherwise, into dsmash. This almost feels intended.

I'm still labbing it but now the biggest issue seems to be killing ledge jump... Which isn't hard.

Still gonna have to practice this vs more and better players but it seems... Solid.

Also note: SH Uair > Dair is only consistently able to be made safe on shield (landing behind them) with the opponent by the ledge, likely already having been fludded there. (And thus more likely to hold shield when seeing fludd)

BIG NOTE: It REALLY helps to buffer shield as soon as you see the opponent take an option at kill percent, you don't need to see what action that is yet. It just makes things go more fluid. I think it's more optimal too, since any sneaky desperate rising ledge attacks are blocked now.

 

[DunnoBro]

Still not 100% sure what to do about standard get-up.

Roll is just free and obvious. Shield + Jump Cancel Usmash catches it peeeerfectly.

Ledge jump is kind of iffy depending on character. Low mobility/range is easy, but disjoints escape options like bouncing fish make it awkward. Even with those options they usually still stay in the pressure zone so it's fine.

SH Uair > Dair is good if they got up and shielded a fludd. But if they're ABOUT to do that, I think charging fludd and backrolling is still good if you NEED the kill.

But since mario backrolling to the ledge like that and getting a grab there is SOOO big, like not just because of bthrow. But because dthrow has less knockback on ledges, so it both combos and kill confirms wayyy better. Especially with bad di (expecting bthrow)

Also, don't underestimate the damage output of SJP to cover ledge jump. Unless they're at kill percent, it's a really nice and free option. It even covers roll too. I haven't had anyone try airdodging it that didn't just get usmashed after.

Edit: OH WOW. SJP Even beats buffered double jumps out of the ledge jumps, but by beats i mean it just hits them out of it... It sends them offstage so with a fludd charge that could be baaad especially if they don't notice. It also beats disjoints consistently, at least at this timing.

Also finding when opponents try to hit you with a bair or something, you should recognize the spacing and roll into the stage and d/usmash them when they land.

 

[DunnoBro]

Another great use is double jump up angle fludd to punish air dodges/airborne opponents. It's the exact same angle as SJP, so it safely feints for it and actually gives a reason for people not to just mash air dodge when you're at that height.

I don't think it really lets you confirm into a kill, but it screws up the way the opponent planned on landing and forces them closer to the ledge. If they used an option like bowser or cloud dair that normally beats sjp, it will stall them in endlag and let you punish. Possibly with a rising dair, which should kill at the percents a sjp would've.

Like I said though, a shoulder jump. Especially z-jump is pretty much demanded to make use of this, but I'm convinced it's a valid tool for mario at this point. At least in some matchups, certain burst mobility or projectile users make using it so heavily rather scary. (low charge fludd is very punishable by flareblitz)

 

[DunnoBro]

Just some micro-improvements, but when you sh cape out of fludd, fall with uair. It stuffs incoming opponents more consistently and combos/kill confirms beautifully.

I've noticed people tend to recover high when I have fludd, trying to go over me and my range. Canceling into uair doesn't seem consistent due to how high they go, and they often cover themselves with projectiles.

I think instantly canceling into a rising cape from charging fludd at the ledge and then going for the edgeguard from there might be best. But not a cape straight out, but rather in. Cape hitbox comes out frame 12.

That's kind of like a smash attack, meaning you can't really react to it but also can't just come at people with it. So putting it where they're obviously about to go should work.

Furthermore, this turns you around to actually pressure them with bair. Also, cape reflects projectiles even while mario is turned around. This makes it ideal for edgeguarding characters the protect themselves with projectiles.

This mainly just sets up for regular edgeguards, not actually trying to cape them. If they're in range to actually be caped, you might as well cancel into fair and SJP to the ledge.

Edit: Actually, tried caping out frontways, still seems good. If they panic airdodge you get fair. They can just go even higher if you mess up though, but it's still good coverage.

Edit2: Yea, in fact if you want to cover dropzone edgeguards, canceling into fireball and falling with dair into sjp to try for jump sniping and stage spikes seems better.

 

[DunnoBro]

Oh wow, fh cape is WAY better than i thought out of fludd in neutral. It's essentially a less risky usmash with just more options after due to the stall, it also beats grabs but it sets up for the strong hit of nair. Which sets up for jab locks... It's gonna be hard teching that when you just got crossed up.

It also sets up for the super low lag dair since you're so close to the ground. And bair. Not to mention the landing uair which is mario's strongest kill confirm. (Especially if di is mixed up from a cape)

At FH height it won't reflect most standard projectiles used in neutral, but it will let you avoid them. SH cape will let you reflect them but not let you get bair out and is also more likely to lose to upsmashes.

I guess in projectile mus you can just switch the input.

Just jumping out of the cape if you're in a bad spot seems good too.

Cape is only frame 12, but canceled out of fludd as a mix-up kind of makes up for it's poor start-up. So it can be used as preemptive frontal coverage, mainly I only use it to get off the ground when i started charging fludd. I used to just fireball but 50faf vs 30faf is pretty big. And it's just more rewarding.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think i misunderstood the fludd charges.
Small charges are good vs aerial opponents already in bad positions, but only to keep them in said bad position a little longer. So if they take a normally safe option like cloud's landing dair or other spaced aerials while fludding, you can punish it late due to the new slightly higher landing later.

But full fludd actually seems to be the only one worth using on the ledge or neutral. It's quicker, scarier, and the distance essentially forces jumps. When charging fludd, you should be canceling it into other moves to cover similar options and save the charge.

Ex. High recovering enemy, cancel into fludd > nair. Low recovering cancel into fireball. Horizontal (ledge grab or just on the lip) like fox or diddy, cancel into on-reaction sjp. Of course higher charges of fludd can still make these unsafe, but remember charged fludd comes out quicker than uncharged.

Full fludd also alters your momentum while landing if you DI away from the water, letting you mix up your landing nicely and make your return to neutral a little easier. Higher charges accomplish this too though it doesn't really keep you out of a bad situation, just helps get to the ground (good in most mus though). Seems like an option best used as an alternative to double jumping, as doing it with no jump pretty much ensures you need to grab the ledge or were just so high.

Angle it down/away for best results.

 

[Xeze]

FLUDD-assisted landings are very good. It allows you to reset to the ledge safely, as any opponents approaching will be kept away. It's also good for on-stage landings. You don't need full FLUDD to do that though, I use it mostly with it half charged.

 

[DunnoBro]

Yea, but I was definitely wrong to underestimate full charge. You actually can't properly punish or pressure some moves without it. (Leaf shield, Pac trampoline, etc) It either doesn't come out fast or far enough.

Also I was testing the absolute best way to capitalize off fludding someone off their standard ledge get-up. Again, only full fludd comes out quick enough otherwise it's possible to react to or is punishable.

However, upon successful push the best follow-up is:

FH Fireball > Nair (Rising to combo off fireball or catch high recoveries)

And then mix-ups from there. Generally cape > sjp

But from the normal position you pressure ledge get-ups (around the roll point) full charge fludd pushes you back at the peeerfect distance for a FH fireball to ledge bounce, letting it cover high recoveries (sniping their jumps) and ledge grabs until you get there. Nair true combos off fireball when done preemptively, and catches options the fireball could not.

You can try dairing to catch low recoveries, bair/nair to catch ledge snaps, or cape to try intercepting a delayed recovery. But it varies per character, but without question this is the best follow-up to a full charged fludding of someone off their standard get-up.

Cape and even fair appear to true combo and generally follow-up well too, but was less consistent. I'll still test. But yea, I definitely underestimated full charge. Make sure to angle it down for the absolute best angle.

So my new ledgeguard chart is:

Charge facing away. Usmash standard, grab roll, bair/uair/sjp jump and ledge rising options.

When charged: Face them, hold shield. Punish ledge jump with back roll/fludd or smash. Roll with usmash. Standard mix-up between fludding, dash grabbing, rolling behind.

(If you roll behind, don't always go for the grab. Sometimes dash ahead and usmash. It covers spot dodge, and roll which is what smarter players will do if they see mario roll behind them at kill percent. It will also be safe on shield at this spacing, without anywhere to retreat you can actually spam usmash and if they drop or roll at the wrong time it can still catch them though it becomes unsafe now)

Some characters have jabs or options to hit from behind out of shield. (Lucas jab, Ryu shoryuken. So just hold shield vs them)

 

[smasher1001]

Any chance we could get some video examples of these fludd options? Would love to see visual examples :D

 

[DunnoBro]

Any chance we could get some video examples of these fludd options? Would love to see visual examples :D

Still testing stuff out, don't wanna make anything because I keep changing my mind. Ex I used to think fludd was best uncharged, but fully charged pressures certain options better. (needle charge, fox laser, trampoline, ex)

 

[DunnoBro]

I've kinda meshed some old ideas with fludd, I think my ledge coverage is significantly more consistent and potent now.

When the opponent grabs the ledge, ideally you want to charge fludd facing away from them. If they roll, react with usmash/grab, and if jump react with sjp or hold shield. If standard you need to just box with them, no guarantees.

However, this doesn't cover all options and it doesn't tend to kill. So, I've looked into reads to cover as many options as possible.

At that range, sh dair seems to cover ledge jump, hang, and standard get-up.

If they jump, dair can drag them back down for a grab.
If they hang, it will knock them off. Only a weak hit but something. At higher percents you can fade off and the dair can stage spike, also works well vs tethers.
If they standard, it sets up for a grab or usmash (if they go behind you)

Rolls need to be considered, but dair can also catch them at times. Usually won't get much off of it, though.

 

[TheYellowBlaze]

Video examples would be nice, but if you still need to test, then do so.

 

[DunnoBro]

Video examples would be nice, but if you still need to test, then do so.

Still very much needs testing. Sometimes it's the reason I win tournament matches, sometimes why I lose. Neither of which do I feel I properly understand yet.

One thing I've begun to note however, is that compared to other shield cancel moves, Fludd seems to have very early shield cancel frames.

Testing with others like mewtwo, diddy, samus, and even fidgets like DK and Sheik... Mario just seems to be able to cancel it much quicker. Likely compensation for a less immediately potent move.

I've been kind of just randomizing what options I take out of and with fludd, hoping it works and seeing how it works. I think I can at least start to rationalize the useage. It's a lot deeper than I originally imagined, and there's two parts to it's usage in neutral.

Part 1: Neutral Neutral

If the opponent has space, or you are boxed in, it's generally best to charge facing them and canceling into fireballs, dair, roll ins, or spot dodges.

Bair, usmash, and other options fail when the opponent has the ability to outspace them.

Charging while facing them makes it so if they don't approach or shield, fludd will push them to the ledge and gain positional advantage. If they shield, a roll in generates advantage as it forces them to take an option. Be aware many characters can act out of shield to punish roll ins, so be prepared to hold shield.

Generally, the most guaranteed punish for nairs and the like on your shield is SJP.

If you really catch them off guard, you can just grab them though jab mix-ups are safer and more consistent since they beat spot dodges and rolls away.

Part 2: Corner Neutral

The opponent is on the ground, but is essentially closer to if not cornered on the ledge, maybe had to grab it. This applies to disadvantaged positions as well, but generally just them being kind of close to the ledge is enough too.

Now is when you want to charge while facing AWAY from them if you want. It lets you cancel into bair to punish jumps, usmash/spot dodge/shield to punish approaches, and dair to cross them up more reliably.

Mario's wakeup options out of spot dodge and shield are very potent, and in this situation they cover a lot of the opponent's options. I'm finding more mileage out of punishing their attempt to regain stage control then I am approaching them on the ledge.

In general, if you see them approach I find it's best to spot dodge, not shield. Since it beats both grabs and most attacks out of a dash, not all but spot dodging just provides the best risk/reward generally outside of hard reads on their end. (Of course some characters have escape options that beat spot dodge like spindash, lingering dash attacks, etc. So you need to play more reactionary)


****

Also, against projectile users it's often best to cancel into a FULL Hop cape. Short hop can reflect almost all projectiles, but full hop still lets you avoid them and also can be done to turn away, and stalls you so you can space bair or dair when landing if they didn't actually use the projectile. It's mainly just a way to get out of shield vs projectile users.

Cape can reflect projectiles even if you're not facing them, too. And in my experience it seems easier to time on reaction that way, for some reason.

 

[DunnoBro]

Ahh, I think I finally figured the ledgeplay out, I was focusing too much on copying mewtwo's ledge coverage with shadowball canceling, but mario actually has something more reminiscent of diddy's peanut harassment.

Essentially, there's a spacing around mid-stage that lets the fireballs bounce to cover roll, standard, and ledge jump. Can also get hang and the 2-frame of some characters but that's not necessary since you can just spam them.

This is only worth it when you have a FULLY charged fludd to follow up after a fireball. This can snipe jumps or early recoveries that didn't understand they couldn't regrab the ledge yet.

Furthermore, fully charged fludd lets you retry the pressure should the fireballs miss. Since it'll push the opponent off while letting you keep your spacing, making it easy to get another charge if necessary.

This is by far the most consistent and rewarding ledge coverage I found, and while it has varying effectiveness it definitely works.

The most notable part is that the spacing for the fireballs lets you actually punish ledge jumps ON REACTION with fully charged fludd, making setting up a punish of a forced regrab actually doable.

I haven't gotten further into it, like what options to take when you NEED the stock. But I think it should stem from this, since this generates sooo much advantage so easily.

Since it's so far away, the only possible options I think you could take would be to throw out double rar bair over the lip to cover ledge jump/standard, and usmash/fsmash for ledge roll. This seems to be essentially what diddy's do.

 

[DunnoBro]

Hmm, I think using cape out of fludd to actually hit the opponent is a valid option. Since the situation is different than if you were to use cape raw.

When you charge fludd, the opponent is forced to approach. If they take an option, spot dodge, or roll let you escape and often punish those options. However, if they just wait it out and not even hold shield, things get a little rough. Cape however covers both those options, and tends to be safe on shield at this very specific spacing.

Overall, it's just a janky bair to use out of fludd while facing forward. But it has been reeping me pretty interesting reward. Mario just having some decent frontal coverage in neutral is pretty huge.

This seems especially potent in MUs against projectile users or other low range characters. The shieldstun to luigi is nice too

If you actually cape them, I'm not sure what the most optimal follow-ups are since there's no hitstun.

But if they did a move, downsmash and dash attack/grab are your most reliable. If they didn't, then jab is. They're not facing you, so feel free to mix up with smashes.

Edit: WOW, There also seem to be mix-ups on shield. Cape does a fair amount of shield damage, and keeps you in the spacing for tipper fsmash. Angled up with a very slight charge will do like 95% shield damage. Can also poke and catch roll/jump.

Just note, spacing a special like this without a shoulder jump is really awkward so that might be why people haven't noticed.

You want to cape as mario is landing.

Overall, it seems decent vs other low range characters

 

[DunnoBro]

Hmm, fludd and fireball work better in neutral than i originally thought.

When their back is to the ledge, fireballs become more than just annoying pokes. They put the opponent offstage without the ability to immediately regrab.

Furthermore, fludd seems to be the only true follow-up after a fireball.

With that in mind, grounded, stationary fireballs while the opponent is by the ledge seems to be best. They don't have the spacing to retreat and camp back.

If they regrab quickly, dash attack is good. If they go deep, the only decent pressure I found seems to be walk off dair to catch 2-frames and late recoveries, and immediately SJP after. Hopefully, they fell out of dair and will get stage spiked.