Floating top players

[-ACE-]

So, my sense of empathy for top players isn't perfect, kinda like I'll never really know what it's like to give birth. With that said, I think floating players (allowing them to skip pools) isn't fair.

Arguments for floating include burnout, not being able to eat, not being able to sleep, rarity of upsets, etc.

I feel like having endurance/stamina is part of the tournament. If you win more, you have to play more. It's always been that way, and that is a skill tested for in tournament. For some players, lack of mental stamina is one of the greatest things holding them back. Do they deserve a win without having earned it, in ANY case (aside from DQ), because of this smash-related weakness they have? No, they have to fight through that weakness. This is a skill that has always been tested for and some people want it removed (but not for everyone).

Recently, I've heard some people say it is ridiculous to force top players to not sleep or eat for 48 hours before they play to truly see who is the best. Sure, that's ridiculous, but so are examples saturated in exaggeration. Is it truly impossible for top players to eat or sleep at a national? Personally, I don't think there's anything stopping them from bringing a nutritious snack or shake to keep them going (hopefully carrying a "heavy" backpack around won't be the next outside challenge that warrants a free win). If non-smash related activities contribute to the lack of sleep factor, should they matter? I personally don't think whether or not a player has a full time job should warrant a free win. Does traveling a long distance to attend the tournament warrant a free win? Of course a Las Vegas smasher has it easier at EVO than a smasher from China, but I still think they should start in the same round: the same as everyone else.

Regarding rarity of upsets, I truly believe ALL DATA ON UPSETS IS OUTDATED. With community growth, 20XX, countless YouTube videos of top players, numerous extensive guides, and tons of streams, "randomguy69" is a lot better today than he was in 2006. Hell, even last year. Upsets are on the rise, and you never know who the next InfiniteNumbers will be. And even if upsets didn't happen, it's still a FREE WIN. As in, you didn't even have to play. Top players have the best mental stamina out of everyone. They're used to it more so than anyone else. The thought of lower level players not only having to outplay them, but to have to play many more sets (more sets than they've ever played before, truly testing the limits of their tournament stamina for the FIRST time) in the process seems a bit crazy. Top players already have seeding on their side, this tips the scale of fairness imo.

How mentally taxing is it for a top player to play pools? Really? Ask any of them how pools were at any tournament, they'll respond with a funny face "free af". Just saying.

There are many lower and mid level players that are forced to conquer the same challenges the top players are complaining about. Many top players want more bo5 sets while simultaneously complaining about playing too much.

Let's be real here. This is ****ing bogus (IMO). I'd like to hear opinions.

 

[kingPiano]

Competitively it is unfair.

But I do understand the reasoning. Those top players have put in the work prior to said tournaments by placing at qualifiers and other tournaments that don't float them.

It also does help keep the competition more even throughout and increases the possibility for each player to make it farther against comparable players.

I don't mind it too much but you are right, now more than ever the chance for upsets happening is real. At Pound, EGLX and, GOML we saw that.

 

[mythbust4000]

Also them facing the entire tourney gives lower players a chance to play with there favorite players

 

[-ACE-]

I also forgot to add that there are a ton of fans that would jump at the chance to get food for a top player. Top players are idolized and could easily have food brought to them. The whole fasting argument is just a joke. Who wouldn't skip an interview or a conversation with a random to get food? LOL. I never kiss anyone's ass but I know mango pretty well, PPMD even better (known him 10+ years), they're not going to let me get in the way of their need to eat, let alone randomguy69.

Top players also have basically a monopoly on access to other top players for practice. Who has a better chance of warming up with armada? M2K, or randomguy69? There are many advantages top players have, I don't see why we have to cater to them further, especially in the form of free tournament wins, when in the end, this is a COMPETITION, for money.

 

[Dolla Pills]

From what I understand the issue is that top players are forced to do much more than compete at a tournament when they're in an event such as playing at side events and being practically harassed by fans. The tournament itself isn't draining, but oftentimes the top players have to be focused for like 12 hours of events and interviews/filmings on the first two days all while they are being constantly bothered by random people is what is draining. This is a new problem smash is facing since it has risen so much in popularity.

Personally, I'm neutral on the idea of floating. I don't think it's necessarily the best solution to this issue, but I don't have many qualms with it. However I do have to disagree with a lot of points brought up against floating:

1. Upsets. This is kind of a silly argument as the problem really only applies to like the top ten players and none of them have lost in R1 pools in absolute ages, and let's be perfectly honest I don't see any of them losing in R1 pools any time soon. They're not floating DJ Nintendo out of pools. Furthermore, if an unknown player has the potential to make the upset they will make it out of round 1 pools.

2. I want to play Armada he's my favorite player. Maybe it's cool to get 7-8 stocked by a top player, have them bump your first and then walk away. However, Armada does not exist to fulfill randomscrub69's wishes and I believe you should not feel entitled to play someone if you can't make it out of R1 pools.

On top of that, the purpose of floating is so that top players have time to meet their fans so that they will be able to focus without interruption on the more important days of the tournament. All the top players want to meet and play with their fans, it's just there often is no good infrastructure to do so at a packed, 3-day tournament. That way you could actually get to play with Armada and maybe he'll even be more relaxed with you and give you a few pointers (let's face it, you're not going to learn anything important by getting 8 stocked by Armada's Peach in an actual set). And besides what's better to you, getting quickly 2-0'd by your favorite player or seeing your favorite player play better in bracket because they are focused and rested.

3. It's a competition. Yeah to me that's just a joke. R1 isn't a competition it's a slaughter and there's a good reason other sports/esports have leagues so that the NFL players aren't playing with my old high school team. The competition starts in bracket for the top ten players. Or maybe the competition is trying to move in between places at the venue when you're constantly mobbed by dozens of people.

To summarize it should be pretty clear that we're asking too much of our top players and something needs to change. We can't expect them to be on hold for matches 12 hours a day when they are constantly being bombarded with other obligations and fans and then still be happy about performing. As it stands a lot of the top players are getting tired of competing frequently and many seem to be playing below their peak. Something needs to be done about this. I'll try to identify the key problems:

1. Fans are out of control. A lot of people (both fans and haters) really have no respect or boundaries and do not treat the players as if they were actual people. Fans feel entitled to time with their favorite player even though time for selfies, signatures, etc. really is a privilege.

2. There are no physical boundaries between players and crowd, especially when not on the stage. At Pound someone was literally kicking the back of Crush's chair while he was playing and he's not even a top player. But there's nothing he can do about it because he has to play there and we have no security to actually enforce good behavior.

3. 12-14 hours is actually a ridiculous amount of time to have to stay focused for matches. Maybe less matches could be streamed or the bracket could be worked in a way that it runs more efficiently, I don't know.

4. Top players still need space where they can warm up for the actual bracket with other top players. They don't want to warm up with randomscrub69 because that's not helpful for anyone (well maybe m2k does but he's different).

5. Top players usually don't have a good time/place to meet their fans.

Now I don't know if floating is the answer to this. It takes some stress off of them but there are some problems with it as well:

1. I say float like the top ten players by why cut off there? To me it's clear we wouldn't need to extend it much further, but that's a pretty arbitrary decision and lord knows number 11 on the rankings is going to complain.

2. How do we accurately rank players? There doesn't seem to be an accurate way to rank smashers yet that is fair to all types of players.

3. Why only float them out of R1? They're not going to lose R2 pools either we could just float them out of those, but top 8 is too far. Is top 32 too far? Probably. 64? I don't know. It's another fairly arbitrary decision.

So I don't know what to think of floating but in my opinion the common arguments against it are a bit silly.

 

[-ACE-]

I think some of the extra responsibilities are forced and some are not.

1. Upsets. This is kind of a silly argument as the problem really only applies to like the top ten players and none of them have lost in R1 pools in absolute ages, and let's be perfectly honest I don't see any of them losing in R1 pools any time soon. They're not floating DJ Nintendo out of pools. Furthermore, if an unknown player has the potential to make the upset they will make it out of round 1 pools.

I see your point, I just feel the chances of upsets happening is higher than ever now and don't trust old data.

2. I want to play Armada he's my favorite player. Maybe it's cool to get 7-8 stocked by a top player, have them bump your first and then walk away. However, Armada does not exist to fulfill randomscrub69's wishes and I believe you should not feel entitled to play someone if you can't make it out of R1 pools.

I don't feel that by starting in the same round as everyone else qualifies as catering to random players' wishes.

On top of that, the purpose of floating is so that top players have time to meet their fans so that they will be able to focus without interruption on the more important days of the tournament. All the top players want to meet and play with their fans, it's just there often is no good infrastructure to do so at a packed, 3-day tournament. That way you could actually get to play with Armada and maybe he'll even be more relaxed with you and give you a few pointers (let's face it, you're not going to learn anything important by getting 8 stocked by Armada's Peach in an actual set). And besides what's better to you, getting quickly 2-0'd by your favorite player or seeing your favorite player play better in bracket because they are focused and rested

I'm not convinced that top players will dedicate all of the extra time to fans. I also don't feel that it warrants several free wins. The last statement kinda suggests spectators are more important than players. Not sure if I agree.

3. It's a competition. Yeah to me that's just a joke. R1 isn't a competition it's a slaughter and there's a good reason other sports/esports have leagues so that the NFL players aren't playing with my old high school team. The competition starts in bracket for the top ten players. Or maybe the competition is trying to move in between places at the venue when you're constantly mobbed by dozens of people

If a competition becomes one-sided, it's still a competition. The tournament itself is a competition, testing for various skill sets. Pools are more difficult than ever now, requiring more mental focus. Both mental and physical stamina are skills tested for in tournament, and skipping pools nowadays removes more of these skill sets than in the past. Rula came within half a stock of 2-0'ing leffen at Evo last year (Maybe it was another super major, can't remember) too. Stuff like that isn't all that rare imo, it's not always a slaughter.

To summarize it should be pretty clear that we're asking too much of our top players and something needs to change. We can't expect them to be on hold for matches 12 hours a day when they are constantly being bombarded with other obligations and fans and then still be happy about performing.

I agree that some of the things they are being asked to do are unfair, but I feel they should take a back seat to the tournament itself. As far as fans, I think it's being blown out of proportion somewhat. I've seen countless times where a top player doesn't have the time for fans, says they're sorry, maybe later, etc. Or they tweet an apology in advance that they'll have to dedicate certain days to training/focusing. I know they feel obligated but it certainly isn't mandatory.

I feel like there are better solutions when we've reached the point of "something's gotta give". I'd be all for a VIP room that allows top players to get away from the outside stress. I also think that people (not just fans) need to be more reasonable with what they expect from top players. I think some other activities should be cut before altering the fairness of a tournament and changing the skill sets we've always tested for.

 

[Spak]

1. Fans are out of control. A lot of people (both fans and haters) really have no respect or boundaries and do not treat the players as if they were actual people. Fans feel entitled to time with their favorite player even though time for selfies, signatures, etc. really is a privilege.

I dunno, this hasn't ever seemed like that much of a problem to me. I've never been to a national so the environment might be different, but at UNC Fall Gamefest 2014 (which was a 67 person singles and 20 team doubles Melee, 54 person PM, and 13 person Brawl tournament,) PP came and everyone seemed pretty chill. He came up and talked to us for a little bit while we were playing matches, my smash group got locked outside the venue with him after dinner so we had a good talk with him, but nobody that entire night seemed to be trying to hog his attention. It's not just that PP was local either, because the next year at TMG @ Chapel Hill (70+ person Melee singles, can't find the exact numbers), everyone seemed to be cool with ESAM (from SC) being in the crowded room of a venue. Neither of those tournaments were floated (PP even decided to start UNC Fall Gamefest '14 in loser's for the fun of it,) and there were no problems for the 12 hours I was there for the first one and 6 hours for the second.

I couldn't make it to BMR (the biggest NC tournament ever) because it was my mom's birthday that weekend, but I heard from my friends that HBox, Eikelmann, Gahtzu, Wizzy, Twitch, PP, and a bunch of other notable players were watching other people playing, popping into people's setups for a few games, and chilling out most of the time rather than getting bombarded by the hoards of fans. I'm not sure if our scene is just cool with top players coming or if the general Melee environment has changed since our last sizable tournament about half a year to a year ago, but I've never personally seen any top players pushed beyond the point of comfortable conversation with fans.

 

[-ACE-]

At super majors fans can get a bit crazy, but top players are pretty good tactfully avoiding being swamped, occasionally ignoring them altogether lol. Not saying I blame them, but it's not like they cater to every fan's request despite any feeling of obligation they may have.

EDIT: Another option that floating will open up for top players: they can play each other, getting quality training in (in specific matchups of their choice nonetheless), while everyone else is playing pools. 64 players were floated at G3. The vast majority of them are not swamped by fans and do not have a problem with burnout. So while mid (and mid/high) level players are essentially wasting their time beating randoms, the top players can be engaging in arguably the best form of tournament preparation. No wonder top players want this lol. It helps them in many ways.

 

[AirFair]

With ranking the way it is, it would be hard to agree on where the cutoff for floating would be. I think that floating would be necessary the bigger events, as the top players would benefit greatly from it. Wouldn't that make pools better for the rising players who can make it out into bracket? Until we can get a better ranking system, the issue remains divisive.

 

[-ACE-]

With ranking the way it is, it would be hard to agree on where the cutoff for floating would be. I think that floating would be necessary the bigger events, as the top players would benefit greatly from it. Wouldn't that make pools better for the rising players who can make it out into bracket? Until we can get a better ranking system, the issue remains divisive.

The thing is, the person set to play mango or armada first match will still be playing the #1 pool seed first match. So they are last seed and will be going to losers most likely anyway. I feel like this argument tries to divert attention from the fact that people are getting several free wins. A better ranking system is always something we should strive for, but I don't think handing out free tournament wins is the best solution to a time crunch.

 

[kingPiano]

Maybe people in those floated pools should be allowed to call out the floated players if they feel like they actually have a chance at beating them.

But there'd have to be increased stakes such as putting money down (Money Match), or amended rules like if they don't win a single game (Bo5) they are outright eliminated.

Not practical at all but would definitely make for interesting stream content and would add possible hype to the tournament.

 

[-ACE-]

Maybe people in those floated pools should be allowed to call out the floated players if they feel like they actually have a chance at beating them.

Doesn't help the partial deletion (of the skill sets) of needing physical and mental stamina as a top player. Beating players that are LIKELY easy to beat (they might not be) is part of earning one's way into bracket. Players just under the high/top player mark must now have MORE mental and physical stamina to even be on par with the top players. I don't think people realize how much easier this makes it for the players being floated.

Let's say leffen starts having finger issues from playing fox, and wants to skip pools. Do we give him several free wins? How do we determine which johns to honor?

Honestly it's funny to me that the guy who was banned from all Swedish tourneys for being a total **** to newcomers is now all about the fans. One has to wonder, is it because he feels he has to be? He has also hinted on Twitter that he will spend more time with fans if this movement of floating pulls through, as well as hinting that is it doesn't, he will attend less tournaments (despite the cost of attending being free for him). Call me crazy, insane, whatever, but these are minor forms of bribery and blackmail lol. The gods know they are idolized, and don't mind using their stance to enhance their advantage (not speaking for all of them). He's saying "well if you give me several free wins I might spend more time with fans, and if you don't, I won't attend, how's that?". Let's be real. Not everyone can get a leffen autograph. QUIT SMOTHERING HIM PEOPLE. Same goes for all the other godly players. He just wants this floating thing to pull through and will do anything necessary to help it do so, because it'll help him win the grand prize... All the money, glory, and respect.

One God doesn't just need to beat all the other gods to win, he needs to beat everyone in his path. No one becomes a soldier after skipping basic training.