First Member of the PK Crew, Ness MU Discussion

[SpottedCerberus]

So, how does Lucas do against Ness? Does he win? Is it even? Does he lose? (I need to know so that I can decide who the top is in my Ness x Lucas (or Lucas x Ness idk yet) fanfiction.)

I realized that this board is kind of inactive, so I might as well make another MU thread instead of waiting for people to discuss Sheik in depth. If we just discuss one character at a time then we'll never really get anywhere. And there's already been some discussion about Ness in the general MU thread, so this seems like a good one for discussion.

As for my thoughts, I think it could be anywhere from a -2 to a 0, but we are definitely not at an advantage. Between -1 to 0 is most likely.

4 of Ness's 5 aerials are among the best of their kind in the game. His n-air is top 3, maybe second only to Luigi's. His b-air loses out only because so many characters have incredible b-airs in this game; it's top 5-10. His f-air is probably #3, second to only Sheik and maybe Luigi. And his u-air has an insane hitbox with a lot of killpower. He can rack up damage quickly with his huge grab reward, and he leaves few openings for us to grab him.

I've heard that PK Fire is effective against him, but I'm not entirely sure how seeing as he can absorb it. The 5% he heals doesn't seem like much, but PK Fire does 9% when it hits, so he's actually up 14% from where another character would be. We can absorb his PK Fire as well, but, contrary to popular belief, he doesn't depend on it like Lucas does.

Ness does more damage than us, and he does it faster. Furthermore, he can get a b-throw KO off of a small mistake. But if we can get him offstage, he is in serious danger of not making it back, so we can also get an early kill off of a read. Combine this with the fact that both characters can heal off of some of each other's attacks and it becomes clear that a single slip-up can result in a complete shift of momentum. This makes it a very polarized match-up that is rather hard to gauge.

Lucas's main advantage is offstage and edge-guarding. Although just about any character can edge-guard Ness effectively, Lucas is just a lot better at it than most. If Ness has to resort to PKT, it should really be a stock. And DJ doesn't snap to the ledge right away, so if he depends on that then d-smash could be effective there too. The offstage magnet gimp is stylish, but inconsistent and difficult. Get the d-smash timing down and you're good.

Also, we have Rope Snake. So that's a thing. Use that. Mix up your Rope Snake use. It can help with zoning and it has follow-ups, so it can be used aggressively, as an approach method, as well.

 

[A Polar Bear]

In the neutral Ness wins by a noticeable but not overwhelming margin. The moves Lucas would use to equal the moves Ness would use to rack up damage and continue combos puts Lucas at a disadvantage due to range (eg Ness' f-air vs Lucas' nair, Ness n-air vs Lucas n-air). But what's strange is that Ness actually has some trouble getting the grab vs Lucas, just because of how the characters play out, each wanting to space with PK Fire, which has practically the same range, and Lucas being faster on the ground and the air. Ness will most likely be getting his grabs off PK Fire confirm or near the edge if Lucas gets impatient and goes for a laggy move. Lucas' main advantage in the neutral is a better jab, which should be used often against approaching Nesses, and a z-air, which fights well against f-air approaches.

But when it comes down to it, Ness facing Lucas is basically facing a more manageable Rosalina. Even though the 'knocking the crutch from under their arms' strategy goes both ways for the PK kids, Lucas can do it so much better because of his more versatile and lengthier recovery, while Ness' is notoriously linear. Options for a Ness when offstage boil down to the following:

- Double jump early and high to land on stage or edge, while covering himself with an aerial. Exploitable through reads or u-smashing or d-smashing near ledge, and stops working at higher percents when he gets thrown further from stage.

- Double jump to edge, which can be covered with well timed d-smashes or runoff b-airs when appropriate.

- PKT2, which if played right, should always be a stock taken by Lucas. Even if the Ness tries to mix it up by stalling or throwing out aerials before he executes the move, a Lucas should always be able to outstall him with his own Magnet. There's a certain threshold which if passed, a Ness cannot perform an aerial to cover his PKT because he can no longer make it back. Learn this range, read the movements, and confirm the KO. It should be a 90% thing.

But its not a complete rout. Ness can also absorb Lucas' PKT recovery, but due to his magnet being centered around his body, and the longer range Lucas can use it from, it is riskier for him. Do note that Ness' excellent aerials can and will deter Lucas' PKT2 if he gets a beat on its path, and can effectively wall out Lucas and rack up a lot of damage if not killing outright while Lucas tries to recover. Overall Ness has a decent offstage game against Lucas too, but not nearly as potent as Lucas against him.

Solely because of the ability to severely limit Ness' options in recovering, and the ability to negate Ness' PKT juggling option with Magnet, I think this matchup leans more to even, and maybe even slightly in Lucas' favour. Perhaps in a professional scene this will play out very differently, but at the moment I personally have little trouble against Ness as Lucas.

 

[BlueberrySyrup]

I feel like this matchup is slightly in Ness's favor.

It's hard for us to grab him with his good OoS options, nair is key to his victory.

Everything you said, plus Ness has safe options to knock us out of PKT2, and then drag us out putting us in a bad situation.

It's not that bad, but imo it's in his favor (As a Ness main)

 

[K3H]

It's an even MU in my opinion. We get out damaged by him, and I think he has a better neutral than us.

It's easier for Ness to get a kill on us, because he has two aerials that kill reliably, and the threat of that back throw means sitting in shield is not a good idea either. Sure, we have kill throws too - three in fact. But Lucas' grab is a little lackluster, and they don't kill quite as reliably as Ness'. The other two main option Lucas has to kill with are Fsmash and Dsmash. but those will probably need a read to connect.

When up close, we beat him. Lucas' jab is faster, and our tilts are slightly better, but only because they have disjoints.

As said by others, Ness should always die when he is forced to use PKT2. It's not a problem for us, since he straight up has to recover sooner than we do, if he wanted to try and engage in a game of chicken. Not to mention Lucas' tether.

I'd say it's even. But just barely.

 

[A Polar Bear]

I don't know why I'm so amused by the use of 'we'.

We are a hive mind. We have no egos, no identities. There is no individual, we are all just part of a golden haired machine. We are Lucas.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Ness solidly beats the rest of the cast except for a few problem characters, and Lucas just isn't one of them.
Lucas' Zair is a safe approach on Ness, but Ness can rush him down and punish him pretty severely if he misses a zair -> grab.
This is probably the wisest approach to the Lucas vs Ness neutral game, however, and in the hands of a practiced player, Lucas can fairly reliably wall out Ness.
Lucas has the better magnet, and can threaten with it as an attack and a PK Fire read, just sporadically using it offensively.
Both can gimp each other very well, but Ness is flat-out superior in the air. Lucas is most optimally played shorthopping and grounded, versus Ness.

Don't forget that PK Freeze works on a recovering Ness, and can freeze Ness during PKT2, giving you a free spike or a chance to improve your positioning.

 

[NekoJubei]

This MU is even, tbh is in nobody's favor

 

[Genclops]

Ness has a distinct advantage. Lucas has a better reach than Ness which is useful. PK Fire outranges Ness', and Ness is fairly vulnerable to Zair I would say. Our stick comes out faster than his bat. There are a hand full of tools that are in Lucas' favor. It seems like more than a few of the Lucas/Ness differences are trading Ness' power for Lucas' multiple hit boxes. But at the end of the day, we don't have the megaton bthrow and sticky PK Fire options. I can't tell you how many Ness' I have had an advantage over for entire matches just to lose my final stock to a bthrow.

 

[ToastCunfirmed]

We really need to approach this MU carefully and play keep away the entire game and respect all of Ness' aerials (especially Nair). Our Zoning Tools keep out Ness pretty well but we can't forgot Ness still has the surperior grab and kill throw (even though we have 3 kills throws and a kill throw setup) because Ness can net the grab easier. Getting Ness offstage is essiential in this MU because if we can get out there fast enough to not get hit with PKT2 and down b, We can almost always guarantee a stock. We also can't forget the fact that Ness can also do this to us, albeit less so. Ness' Dsmash can hit us out of tether and our dsmash can sometimes hit him when he tries to recover. A Good Ness will usually recover high to avoid getting Down B'd so be aware of that. We have the better smashes and tilts easily but he has better aerials and a better kill throw (seriously, his bthrow is like all of ours wrapped up in one). Rarely approach with Nair because Ness has a small hurtbox compared to our Nair's hitbox (Trust me on this one). Neutral seems about even but Ness wins slightly just because of his great aerials so try not to worry about that. Overall i think this MU is even. Don't forget to stay grounded unless when u need to (for example if u use Zair or PK Fire)

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

The hardest Lucas' I've ever faced, as Ness, all spammed zair until they got a zair -> grab combo and would either just stall and play keep away until I reached Lucas' bthrow %, or until I reached around 150% (less, if low ceiling or on higher platforms) and could be upthrown from anywhere on the stage. Lucas has a superb edgeguard game against Ness, but it is riskier than the patient, almost Villager-esque, stall and wall strategy.

Ness' ranged options are not viable against Lucas, due to PSI Magnet. Your best chances are keeping Ness at bay and mixing up your zairs with PK Fire, so he doesn't have an easy time predicting and healing.