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Fire Emblem/Kid Icarus and Representation discussion.

Troykv

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Donkey Kong. Doesn't need more reps. You're funny.

Sakurai isn't gonna add just any character to the roster? That certainly explains Dark Pit.

And either way, even if FE isn't niche in Japan, you are still arguing that it's on par with THE LEGEND OF ZELDA (Exact same ratio of characters to clones.) and deserves more rep then most franchises on the roster!

And that still doesn't get into my point that every single freaking Fire Emblem characters swings a sword around, so even while the series has more rep then most franchises, it has less rep of it's own freaking franchise's variety!
Well... the ratio still beneficies TLOZ because:

3 Original characters and 2 Semi Clones >>> 3 Original characters, 1 Semi Clone, 1 Filler Clone

Just my logic, I see Lucina as an Alt with their own stats xDU

But yeah, Donkey Kong already has the most essencial characters (DK himself and Diddy), but still has two characters that could perfectly fit as "Smash Material" (King K. Rool is the most original one otherwise...).
 
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CometX-ing

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Donkey Kong. Doesn't need more reps. You're funny.

Sakurai isn't gonna add just any character to the roster? That certainly explains Dark Pit.

And either way, even if FE isn't niche in Japan, you are still arguing that it's on par with THE LEGEND OF ZELDA (Exact same ratio of characters to clones.) and deserves more rep then most franchises on the roster!

And that still doesn't get into my point that every single freaking Fire Emblem characters swings a sword around, so even while the series has more rep then most franchises, it has less rep of it's own freaking franchise's variety!
No, DK does not need more reps, we have the protagonist and the deuteragonist, anyone else is extra and isn't needed, And yes that included K Rool cause he hasn't seen the villain role in a DK game in a years and DK has no definitive antagonist for the series.

Dark Pit was a major character in Uprising, which was recent, he was also the easiest to make seeing as how he is a clone of Pit in his own series. And no I don't believe that excuses being a clone but that's just how it is.

I'm not arguing its on par with Zelda at all, I'm saying that Zelda lacks any characters who really need to be added. It has the protagonist, the deuteragonist and the antagonist, no one else is really needed. Even Toon Link and Shiek could be considered extra.

And the fact that all FE characters lack variety is an issue, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve the amount it has, especially when compared to other series. Each FE character represents a FE game, and since FE has no definitive protagonist the fact that they have a rep for each game is a non issue. I will however agree that Lucina herself was unnecessary seeing as she is not only a clone but also the second awakening representative.
 

Frostwraith

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Representation this, representation that... I just play the damn game.

And it's damn fun too.

And I used to care about all the rep stuff and whatnot. But I realized it had no impact on the fun I have playing the game, picking a character out of a huge roster and kick ass.

Then again, I guess I have changed my mindset on trivial things as video games. Let's just hope I don't rot any time soon.

All crossover games have a mix of well-known characters, odd picks, developer biases and development circumstances. Smash is no exception in this.

Would people complain if Smash had been developed by Retro Studios and, in a similar vein as how Sakurai ported a ton of content from KIU, there would be a huge load of DKCR and Metroid Prime content? (This is the part about development circumstances.) Or perhaps, by virtue of being Western developers, they would listen more to Western sensibilities and forget some hugely popular character/franchise in Japan but not outside of it? Cue rage from the Land of the Rising Sun.

Next, characters like Wii Fit Trainer or Mr. Game & Watch. Oddballs no one ever imagined they would be picked and no one would care if they never had made into the games. Hmm... I'm pretty sure games like the Capcom vs. series or Project X Zone have their odd picks that no one imagined they would make it.

Excess of representation, you say? Well, take a look at some of the decade-old Capcom vs. SNK games. Think Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus are over-represented in Smash 4? Wait until you see some of those games' rosters, where Capcom's roster is 90% Street Fighter characters, whereas SNK actually gets variety in franchises. The amount of FE and KIU content in Smash 4 is tame compared to this.

All in all, every crossover game will have this sort of things and the inevitable complaints. "Where's character X?" "Why did that franchise get more than my favorite one?" "Why is developer X biased?" "Why this?" "Why that?" ... I hear all the time, causing my mind to grow crazy and mad and insane and make me spout rants like this.

That's why I stopped caring about this and just play the damn games. It accomplishes nothing and only in a perfect game where all franchises would get the exact amount of content, there would be no complaints... Oh, but there would because "sales" and "number of games". The proportion between them and content in a crossover game is holy and sacred!

...I'll just end this pointless rant right now. Just wanted to get some accumulated garbage out of my mind.
 
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Morbi

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No, DK does not need more reps, we have the protagonist and the deuteragonist, anyone else is extra and isn't needed, And yes that included K Rool cause he hasn't seen the villain role in a DK game in a years and DK has no definitive antagonist for the series.

Dark Pit was a major character in Uprising, which was recent, he was also the easiest to make seeing as how he is a clone of Pit in his own series. And no I don't believe that excuses being a clone but that's just how it is.

I'm not arguing its on par with Zelda at all, I'm saying that Zelda lacks any characters who really need to be added. It has the protagonist, the deuteragonist and the antagonist, no one else is really needed. Even Toon Link and Shiek could be considered extra.

And the fact that all FE characters lack variety is an issue, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve the amount it has, especially when compared to other series. Each FE character represents a FE game, and since FE has no definitive protagonist the fact that they have a rep for each game is a non issue. I will however agree that Lucina herself was unnecessary seeing as she is not only a clone but also the second awakening representative.
If you are going to assert that we do not "need" any given character, that sentiment also applies to the deuteragonist.
 

MagiusNecros

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Roster padding is what I detest and roster padding not only limits creativity but also means there are less playstyles for me to try and actually have fun with. I don't mind Roy so much because he actually feels different. I don't get that feeling with Lucina or DP.

Which is pretty sad since I feel like Bowser is the only character I like. Complexity within simplicity.
 

GreenKirby

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Look at this way:

Why wasn't Alph made a separate character as well?

Why was it revealed in Dark Pit's Palutena's Guidance that he was now an officer to Viridi? Like what the point of it? It'll be like finding out Mario has another brother. It's not exactly something that you randomly mention in a crossover.

If recent popularity is the reason Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus had more reps why didn't the DK series get a third rep (if not K.Rool, then Dixie or Cranky) since DKC Returns sold more than Awakening or Uprising? And again, bringing up Alph.

For some reason, Kid Icarus gets a lot of remixed music (from the one game Sakurai worked on. Go figure) While Donkey Kong, a franchise which has a reputation of having great music has:
Jungle Hijinx
Jungle Hjinx V2.0
Jungle Hijinx & Knuckles
Super Monkey Jungle Hijinx
Jungle Hijinx 2: Diddy's High Jynx
Jungle Hijinx Version "Hey at least you got a stage called Jungle Hijinx"

And music wise, F-Zero gets
Mute City
Mute City V2.0
Mute City V"And they couldn't be assed bring back Melee!Mute City because..."


Hell, compare Kid Icarus and Kirby to content beyond playable characters

Kid Icarus:
3 characters (1 clone)
6 new items
2 Assist Trophies
3 stages (1 returning)
19 Smash Run enemies
63 Trophies

Kirby:
3 characters
5 items (none of them are new )
2 assist trophies (1 is new )
4 stages (2 returning)
8 Smash Run enemies
55 Trophies

A series with 3 games has more stuff than a series with 20+ (which btw the series with 20 games, only 4 games Sakurai worked on got any real attention)
 
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MagiusNecros

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It's called a recency effect. Sakurai bias is real to shove a lot of crap from a recent game he worked on.

Personally I was banking on his love for Kirby to give us Galacta Knight. That didn't happen sadly.
 

CometX-ing

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If you are going to assert that we do not "need" any given character, that sentiment also applies to the deuteragonist.
The deuteragonist is the second most important character, I would say in the case of Diddy ( for appearing along side DK in the first DKC game and continue to join him in most Mario Spin offs) and more so Zelda (for obvious reasons) that they are needed for to properly represent the series. It's the Impa's or Dixie Kongs that don't really need to be added.
 

RobinOnDrugs

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Representation this, representation that... I just play the damn game.

And it's damn fun too.

And I used to care about all the rep stuff and whatnot. But I realized it had no impact on the fun I have playing the game, picking a character out of a huge roster and kick ***.

Then again, I guess I have changed my mindset on trivial things as video games. Let's just hope I don't rot any time soon.

All crossover games have a mix of well-known characters, odd picks, developer biases and development circumstances. Smash is no exception in this.

Would people complain if Smash had been developed by Retro Studios and, in a similar vein as how Sakurai ported a ton of content from KIU, there would be a huge load of DKCR and Metroid Prime content? (This is the part about development circumstances.) Or perhaps, by virtue of being Western developers, they would listen more to Western sensibilities and forget some hugely popular character/franchise in Japan but not outside of it? Cue rage from the Land of the Rising Sun.

Next, characters like Wii Fit Trainer or Mr. Game & Watch. Oddballs no one ever imagined they would be picked and no one would care if they never had made into the games. Hmm... I'm pretty sure games like the Capcom vs. series or Project X Zone have their odd picks that no one imagined they would make it.

Excess of representation, you say? Well, take a look at some of the decade-old Capcom vs. SNK games. Think Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus are over-represented in Smash 4? Wait until you see some of those games' rosters, where Capcom's roster is 90% Street Fighter characters, whereas SNK actually gets variety in franchises. The amount of FE and KIU content in Smash 4 is tame compared to this.

All in all, every crossover game will have this sort of things and the inevitable complaints. "Where's character X?" "Why did that franchise get more than my favorite one?" "Why is developer X biased?" "Why this?" "Why that?" ... I hear all the time, causing my mind to grow crazy and mad and insane and make me spout rants like this.

That's why I stopped caring about this and just play the damn games. It accomplishes nothing and only in a perfect game where all franchises would get the exact amount of content, there would be no complaints... Oh, but there would because "sales" and "number of games". The proportion between them and content in a crossover game is holy and sacred!

...I'll just end this pointless rant right now. Just wanted to get some accumulated garbage out of my mind.
I believe that you have read my mind on this matter!
 

Yoshister

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And like Dark Pit, Lucina gets to waste a character slot. Being nothing more than a carbon copy of Marth.
The character slot (If they existed, of course) that could've been taken by Lucina would've been Alph's. You're right. The character slot WAS wasted.
 
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Mario123311

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It should have been used for someone like Starfy or even some of the fan requested ones. You know, uniuqeness?

So yes, both Lucina and Dark Pit are an utter waste. And even if you hate Pichu: At least he had a GIMMICK for gods sake. He had a pretty drastic difference to tell him apart.
 

TimidKitsune129

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Dark Pit and Lucina were literally added at the last minute, so calling them an utter waste isn't exactly true since the development time that they supposedly took wasn't gonna go into new characters anyway. It was either make a few clones or nothing.

Could they have been more unique than they ended up being? Yeah, definitely. But they didn't, and it is what it is. At least we got a few more characters even if they aren't all that distinct from the original. The more the merrier I say.

I'm gonna be honest, I'm surprised people are still this salty about the clones a year after the game's release. :/
 
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Mario123311

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I still think they could easily just say "when it's done" and they would be alright without any worries. I will wait as long as I don't get clowns like EdgePit. Again, I'm fine with clones like Luigi or so or even Pichu, Dr. Mario and Ganondorf. Carbon copies like Dark Pit don't need to exist though.
 
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MagiusNecros

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Should have been DLC. You know. Done proper justice. But if Bowser can't get his own voice what hope is there?
 

Mario123311

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Should have been DLC. You know. Done proper justice. But if Bowser can't get his own voice what hope is there?
Don't forget Ted Lewis for Dedede (I am serious) and DK's official voice. Those things just bother me with the fact they lack those honestly.
 

dangeraaron10

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Dark Pit and Lucina were literally added at the last minute, so calling them an utter waste isn't exactly true since the development time that they supposedly took wasn't gonna go into new characters anyway. It was either make a few clones or nothing.

Could they have been more unique than they ended up being? Yeah, definitely. But they didn't, and it is what it is. At least we got a few more characters even if they aren't all that distinct from the original. The more the merrier I say.

I'm gonna be honest, I'm surprised people are still this salty about the clones a year after the game's release. :/
Yeah, I realize the clones are about as clone-y as it gets, but I don't see the point in the frothing rage from some posters (not pointing anyone out in this thread, everyone here is civil). It's not like completely new characters were somehow snubbed for clones. Not to mention they were all just alts anyway and got a quick statistical change and their own square on the CSS, boom, instant fanservice.

I'd personally like to see Lucina be de-cloned and promoted to a Great Lord, and use a shield like she does in FE:A that looks like her butterfly mask. Then basically make her a fusion of Marth and Link without the gadgets and actually using the shield for attacks.

I am so incredibly indifferent to Dark Pit and wouldn't care if he stayed or went.
 

MagiusNecros

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DP is the worst offender. Core concept of playstyle is pretty much the same. Even more then Lucina.
 

Powerman293

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DP is the worst offender. Core concept of playstyle is pretty much the same. Even more then Lucina.
I'd argue Lucina is the worst offender as with Dark Pit, they at least went in and changed 3 moves individually and gave him a different final Smash. Lucina just was a Marth range cut and damage modification.
 

Talpr1

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No, DK does not need more reps, we have the protagonist and the deuteragonist, anyone else is extra and isn't needed, And yes that included K Rool cause he hasn't seen the villain role in a DK game in a years and DK has no definitive antagonist for the series.
So I guess we can cut Ganondorf without worries since he hasn't appeared in a main Zelda game since 2006(before the last appearence of K. Rool in a DK game!).
 

Frostwraith

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Why wasn't Alph made a separate character as well?
Alph was actually considered to be a clone character but didn't make it due to development issues.

Olimar had a convoluted development due to difficulties in implementation on the 3DS version. Rock Pikmin were also meant to be part of his moveset, but ended up being scrapped.

http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/07/29/plucky-little-guys-olimar-and-alph-in-smash-4/

And once again, I reiterate that a lot of the Kid Icarus content (mainly enemies and trophies in the 3DS version) is ported directly from the game. Because KIU was a 3DS game and Sakurai's team had all the assets from the game, it was easy to implement a lot of material in Smash because, guess what, it was already done beforehand.

In the Wii U version, the Kid Icarus franchise has next to no trophies besides the characters, items and ATs.

As for KIU getting 2 ATs, seriously? There are plenty of franchises that have 2 ATs, including minor ones like EarthBound.

And if the Palutena's Guidance conversations are bias, then so are Snake's codecs in Brawl and the Star Fox codecs since Melee. The common denominator of those three? All are allusions to the fact those games are dialogue heavy and feature plenty of character interaction during gameplay, which can't be said about most of the series in the game.
 
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Diddy Kong

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Dixie Kong & Impa > Everything from Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus, sans Ike. Ike is cool. :4myfriends:
 

Delzethin

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So much flame baiting in this thread now. Guys, saying "they should've done (insert character or concept you're personally fond of) instead of this stupid (any of the clones you personally dislike)" only ends up drawing the ire of everyone else and completely overlooks the situation the dev team was in when they made the bonus clones.

-Alph likely wouldn't have been much more unique as a clone than Dark Pit or Lucina. Consider the fact that most of Olimar's attacks involve the Pikmin themselves, and it wouldn't make any sense for them to have different stats and properties just because a different captain is commanding them. Rock Pikmin would've helped him stand out...but they also would've taken additional programming time for their unique properties that the dev team just did not have.

-Dixie Kong would've had to have several attacks changed, just by nature of what she can and can't do compared to Diddy, and they didn't have the time for that. Doc got away with it because he was planned for Brawl, likely had some leftover data to use, and the one move that is completely different from regular Mario is just a copy from Luigi instead. Dixie would arguably make more sense as her own, fully distinct character than as a clone, and a clone Dixie would've led to another Falcondorf controversy.

-For all the talk of Young Link and Pichu, there's something to keep in mind: they did not have available Smash models for either of them. Lucina, Doc, and Pittoo already had fully functional character models and animations since they started as alts. Consider the fact that neither Young Link nor Pichu were even planned for Brawl, meaning they would've had to spend time they didn't have in order to create and animate completely new models, and you have your answer.
 
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Sid-cada

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My thoughts on the clones in this game amount to this: While I acknowledge that the clones took less time than other characters and it is unlikely that if they were removed we might have gotten a non-clone, I still think that they were an unnecessary time sink and the time spent on them could have gone to improve other areas of content.

Remember that characters aren't the be all, end all of content. To be honest, I think the time spent on the characters would have been better off spent polishing what content we already had, rather than trying to create some new, shiny trinket that isn't really all that exiting in the first place. Now, while I can't say what content might have been included if we didn't have Doc, Lucina, and Pittoo, to only focus on the characters is missing the bigger picture.

Maybe characters might have been more balanced from the get-go.
Maybe the removed fourth custom special type may have been implemented.
Maybe a few extra ports might have been able to be included, like the lost Pokeball and AT summons, an extra stage or two, or some items missing from the game (like the fan or parasol).
Heck, we might have been able to have a new mode of game squeezed in, like a king of the hill or the ability to swap out characters mid-match.

Whatever it might have been, I think I would prefer the options outlined above than the addition of the clones.
 
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No, DK does not need more reps, we have the protagonist and the deuteragonist, anyone else is extra and isn't needed, And yes that included K Rool cause he hasn't seen the villain role in a DK game in a years and DK has no definitive antagonist for the series.
...are you trying to cause a ****storm? :/ If there's anything every major series needs in Smash, it's a protagonist and villain; and so far, only two of Nintendo's biggest franchises have them; Mario and Zelda. Metroid doesn't have a playable villain, nor does DK, even though both are widley praised as some of the best of their genres. I don't count Dedede since he's not really a villain in any capacity. :p

And what other DK villains would even be considered over him? Tiki Tong? I could maybe see Frederik, but K.Rool is the villain people associate with DKC, and he'll probably stay that way.

K.Rool's become the main DK antagonist and will stay this way.

Dark Pit was a major character in Uprising, which was recent, he was also the easiest to make seeing as how he is a clone of Pit in his own series. And no I don't believe that excuses being a clone but that's just how it is.
They could have made Medusa as a clone of Palutena, since she also appeared in Uprising and has more significance to the series than Dark Pit. It'd be less favorable, but at least it'd be better than a black-clothed inverse Pit.

I'm not arguing its on par with Zelda at all, I'm saying that Zelda lacks any characters who really need to be added. It has the protagonist, the deuteragonist and the antagonist, no one else is really needed. Even Toon Link and Shiek could be considered extra.
A proper Ganon that actually fights like Ganon would be nice. :/
 
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Morbi

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The deuteragonist is the second most important character, I would say in the case of Diddy ( for appearing along side DK in the first DKC game and continue to join him in most Mario Spin offs) and more so Zelda (for obvious reasons) that they are needed for to properly represent the series. It's the Impa's or Dixie Kongs that don't really need to be added.
That was my point, the notion of "need" is completely subjective and if you are going to state that one character does not "need" in, the same sentiment will apply to every single character that is not the protagonist, and in some instances, the protagonist. If you are representing a series or a franchise, you only "need" one character to do it. Fortunately for us, Sakurai does not care about what is needed. No one with a semblance of rational thought does.
 

CometX-ing

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So I guess we can cut Ganondorf without worries since he hasn't appeared in a main Zelda game since 2006(before the last appearence of K. Rool in a DK game!).
A different incarnation of Ganondorf is still Ganondorf. K Rool hasn't appeared in a DKC game in any form, even after its revival.
 

CometX-ing

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That was my point, the notion of "need" is completely subjective and if you are going to state that one character does not "need" in, the same sentiment will apply to every single character that is not the protagonist, and in some instances, the protagonist. If you are representing a series or a franchise, you only "need" one character to do it. Fortunately for us, Sakurai does not care about what is needed. No one with a semblance of rational thought does.
If Sakurai didn't think about who is needed at all then we would have gotten Waddle or Krystal already. The Protagonist, deuteragonist (should the series have one) and the villain are all needed in order to properly represent a series. The deuteragonist only sometimes being a case by case basis (Zelda and Diddy are the deuteragonist of their own series and play an integral part in them so of course they need to be in, where as say a one off deuteragonist doesn't need to get in. )
 
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Mario123311

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The only exception for another Donkey Kong character that I'd be okay with is Dixie Kong as far as I can say. I still would have other franchises characters before any more for existing franchises in Smash though. ((And also no more swordmen either. We already have about 3 Marths, 2 Not exactly Marths and "Mr. Feelz."))
 

Talpr1

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A different incarnation of Ganondorf is still Ganondorf. K Rool hasn't appeared in a DKC game in any form, even after its revival.
But he is still called "The Bowser of Donkey Kong" by his Smash 4 throphy after all those years, not to mention that only three DK games haven't starred K. Rool as their villain. And even then, he is the only DK villain that isn't an one-off wonder and more importantly, that people genuinely like; I've never seen anyone claiming that they prefer the Evil Kongs or the Tiki Tribe to the Kremlings. Snowmads gets more mixed receptions but most people still despise them for looking like an arctic knockoff of the kremlings.

Tl;dr: K. Rool is one of the few characters that can claim of being relevant without being recent.
 

Flaxr XIII

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Dixie Kong & Impa > Everything from Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus, sans Ike. Ike is cool. :4myfriends:
Honestly now, I thought we'd be more mature than this...

Ugh, I paused for a moment to collect my thoughts but seeing how this thread has progressed, debating this further would only waste my time.
 

Diddy Kong

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To be real honest, I wouldn't mind more clones as :4drmario::4darkpit::4lucina: as DLC, but am doubting they'll do full clone characters as DLC. Semi-clones seem more likely. Characters I think have potential for semi-clone / clone characters are: :4fox: (obviously, :wolf:, otherwise Slippy Toad or Krystal) :4falcon: (F-Zero racers) :4pikachu: (:pichumelee::026:) :4diddy: (Dixie Kong, Lanky Kong) :4dk: (DK Jr., Chunky Kong) :4sheik: (Impa) :4metaknight: (Galactia Knight)
 

Yoshister

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To be real honest, I wouldn't mind more clones as :4drmario::4darkpit::4lucina: as DLC, but am doubting they'll do full clone characters as DLC. Semi-clones seem more likely. Characters I think have potential for semi-clone / clone characters are:
(obviously, :wolf:
Why would Sakuri make a non-clone character a semi-clone?
 

GreenKirby

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Alph was actually considered to be a clone character but didn't make it due to development issues.

Olimar had a convoluted development due to difficulties in implementation on the 3DS version. Rock Pikmin were also meant to be part of his moveset, but ended up being scrapped.

http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/07/29/plucky-little-guys-olimar-and-alph-in-smash-4/
So incompetence then? And I find it quite funny they didn't bother copying/pasting Olimar's moves sans rock Pikmin, but they gave enough time to give Dark Pit a different final smash.

And once again, I reiterate that a lot of the Kid Icarus content (mainly enemies and trophies in the 3DS version) is ported directly from the game. Because KIU was a 3DS game and Sakurai's team had all the assets from the game, it was easy to implement a lot of material in Smash because, guess what, it was already done beforehand.
So stinginess then as it's not like Kid Icarus is the only series that has a 3DS game


And if the Palutena's Guidance conversations are bias, then so are Snake's codecs in Brawl and the Star Fox codecs since Melee. The common denominator of those three? All are allusions to the fact those games are dialogue heavy and feature plenty of character interaction during gameplay, which can't be said about most of the series in the game.
Way to completely miss the point. I mean, minus other problems of Pally's Guidances had (multiple Ganons, crapping on Chrom, going off tangent), I said the problem with Dark Pit's was he was revealed to be Viridi's officer. A revelation like that should be revealed IN A KID ICARUS GAME.

If Sakurai didn't think about who is needed at all then we would have gotten Waddle or Krystal already. The Protagonist, deuteragonist (should the series have one) and the villain are all needed in order to properly represent a series. The deuteragonist only sometimes being a case by case basis (Zelda and Diddy are the deuteragonist of their own series and play an integral part in them so of course they need to be in, where as say a one off deuteragonist doesn't need to get in. )
You keep saying that, but you ignore that Mario has 6 characters.
 
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Wii Twerk Trainer

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Sakurai just please make Ridley, Dixie, and King K Rool playable as DLC. I wouldn't even care if Fire Emblem gets 10 reps in smash 5, I just want Ridley and that's it lol
 

XbusterKosmos

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I think we got enough characters from both of these series respectively.

anymore it would be overkill.
 

Morbi

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If Sakurai didn't think about who is needed at all then we would have gotten Waddle or Krystal already. The Protagonist, deuteragonist (should the series have one) and the villain are all needed in order to properly represent a series. The deuteragonist only sometimes being a case by case basis (Zelda and Diddy are the deuteragonist of their own series and play an integral part in them so of course they need to be in, where as say a one off deuteragonist doesn't need to get in. )
I agree that a series is not properly represented without an antagonist; however, most series in Smash, Fire Emblem (unless you count Robin for spoiler-esque reasons) and Kid Icarus included do not have one. I never said that he did not think about it at all, but a character is not excluded because they are not "needed" and a character is not added because they are "needed." Sometimes characters such as Dark Pit or Lucina are included in the game for developmental reasons rather than as a means to adequately represent any given franchise.
 

Frostwraith

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So incompetence then? And I find it quite funny they didn't bother copying/pasting Olimar's moves sans rock Pikmin, but they gave enough time to give Dark Pit a different final smash.
More like, lack of time. Game development has a tight schedule. They already had a little extra time for the three existing clones. If they hadn't got such time, they would've remained as alts.

They managed to be clones because all the changes are the sort of thing that can be done in relatively less time. Olimar, being a more complex character than Mario, Marth and Pit, doesn't lend himself to easy to develop changes.

If they already had difficulties implementing him on the 3DS due to hardware limitations (which by the way can make certain aspects of programming REALLY difficult and trust me that I know what I'm talking about)m why would they compromise the entire project by attempting to add a clone of him and fail?

Those kind of decisions aren't taken lightly, especially for unplanned additions like the clones.

Dark Pit was the last character added to the game with only minor tweaks and a different Final Smash that happens to be a reskin of Zelda's Light Arrow, down to having the same damage and knockback output, meaning the move's data was ported and unchanged. All they did was animate Dark Pit's model to match the duration of the Final Smash.

Dr. Mario also had some assets ported from Luigi, namely the down aerial and Dr. Tornado animations.

For Alph or Olimar to have Rock Pikmin, they'd need to make and animate a new model. The existing clones were all done from already made assets. Failure to understand this only leads to ignorant statements like many of those found in this thread.

So stinginess then as it's not like Kid Icarus is the only series that has a 3DS game
The only series to have a 3DS game AND made by the same developers. What's the part

Other games that could've had ported assets, sure, and there are, but Sakurai had to request those assets at other studios which can take time due to legalities and other such things, while he already had the KIU files sitting on their development kits for Smash 4. The Smash 4 team was provided with assets from Brawl and Kid Icarus: Uprising, so it's only natural a lot of content from those games is present this time around. The Brawl team also had assets from Melee, courtesy of HAL Laboratory.

Doing a huge game like Smash 4 without having a base is not viable. Most large-scale projects nowadays aren't done completely from scratch. There are game engines, development kits and media libraries that serve the purpose of easing development.

People should really learn more about game development. The ignorance here is astounding, but not surprising.

Way to completely miss the point. I mean, minus other problems of Pally's Guidances had (multiple Ganons, crapping on Chrom, going off tangent), I said the problem with Dark Pit's was he was revealed to be Viridi's officer. A revelation like that should be revealed IN A KID ICARUS GAME.
It's still just an Easter Egg like what Snake had or the Star Fox characters always had since Melee, for ****'s sake. That's my point.

Really, so what if Dark Pit works for Viridi? Sure, it's unnecessary, but is it really going to break the game? To make it not enjoyable? Have people gotten so salty to the point of nitpicking a ****ing Easter Egg that has been present in the Smash series since Melee?!

Ah, but it's from Kid Icarus this time instead of Metal Gear! Kid Icarus is the devil ever since Sakurai touched the series!

I'm done with this crap. This **** has been going for nearly a year. This fanbase can't let things go. It's like an incurable disease that progressively worsens and becomes more troublesome, yet it can't be cured.
 

WeirdChillFever

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We get Palutena and everybody is okay.
We get Dark Pit and everybody loses their minds.

Character-wise, KI is fine.
Palutena was a popular character that was deemed as a shoo-in even before leaks touched it.
Dark Pit was a surprise, but he doesn't overrepresent the series.

I don't believe items and trophies can overrepresent a series.
On 3DS, Smash Run is basically City Trial: Uprising, but that's because the enemies fit and can be ported easily.

KI is fine overall.

Onto Fire Emblem:

Fire Emblem has three core characters:
Marth, Ike and Robin.
Lucina is a bonus.
Roy was a Melee vet.

I'd say the problem here is the veteranism that even affects clones.
Roy and Lucina will probably return next game, leaving the FE representation at a high level, because fans will whine till they get their precious clone back if it got cut.

People also need to understand using DK to compare to overrepresented franchises is adding fuel to the fire.
Comparing the two will almost always lead to the conclusion of FE/KI being waaay to overrepresented, but the problem here is that DK is way too underrepresented, while FE/KI is fine.
 
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