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Figuring out Samus

Eisen

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Hey guys, Lucas main here. Long time Samus secondary (since 3.0), err, failing secondary. I guess that's why I'm here.

Maybe I'm not watching enough videos, but I just can't seem to get an understanding on Samus' neutral game and spacing game. I know much of her neutral involves warding players off with missile spam/zair, but I have a lot of trouble when it comes to actually approaching or defending. Samus' sh is so huge and floaty, I have no idea what to do besides mix up my meaty moves like nair, ice-fair, cc dsmash, up B oos, ftilt and jab. But even so, she feels lacking to me. I don't understand how she works for the most part, I think.

I don't have videos, but with this little bit of information, is there any help someone could provide?
 

ES Lite

The Real Slim Shady
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Samus's neutral game is dependent on stage control. Like you said, missile/ zair spam works well to achieve that control. One aspect that you need to get around is when your opponent starts to counter your missiles, whether it be from power shielding, shining, mario's cape, etc. When this happens, its your job as samus to punish your opponent. Thats her neutral game in a nutshell.

-Zair works great because it puts a hitbox on your opponent relative to when your missile hits. You'll either want to hit them on the startup of their reflect option, or after the missile is reflected so that zair eats the missile.
-Grab is amazing if you can move with samus. While its true samus is "slow and floaty", her wavedash and waveland are among the best. The idea here is to either grab your opponent before your missile hits. Most, if not all, reflect options cant hit samus within her grab range. If you can't get to your opponent before your missile, just hope they stay in their shield; that'll give you more than enough time to grab them with missile's shield stun.
-More missiles. If you're fast enough, your first missile will be reflected, but you're second missile will eat it. This is implying you missile cancel with a smash missile on the floor and a homing on a platform. Unless your opponent intends to stay in their shine, spam cape, or possesses godlike power shielding, missiles will overwhelm whatever option they decide to take. Again, you literally have to be frame perfect for this to be effective, plus your opponent needs to be close enough where they cant simply jump out of the way.
-Super Wavedash. Its easier to do in PM. Why doesnt any other samus utilize it? No idea. Missile cancel, swd, punish your opponent for basically anything they do in reaction. Whether you swd with a hitbox coming at them (Dsmash works great because of how long it lasts, and how it goes around samus), or you swd, cancel the momentum once you're behind them (Run the opposite direction) and do whatever your heart desires. Its fine if you don't prefer to SWD, but the idea here is to basically get to your opponent before the missile, like with the second option I described.
-Intercept their aerial evasion tactics. As fancy as that sounds, all you have to do its nair, fair, or bair them when they jump out of a missile's line of fire. Nair is good, but you want to time it correctly because it only hits in front and a little on top/ below samus. Fair is a really good sequence of hitboxes. The last one pops them up for major follow ups and combo potential. Also, ice fair and ice usmash are anti-airs as well.


Thats just the tip of the iceberg, implying that you are a safe distance away and are able to missile cancel without punishment. If you're not able to, that means you've lost stage control. It means you're on the defensive rather than the offense. Luckily for you, Samus is pretty much ALWAYS in defense mode. Most of the people you'll play against will want to always be next to you. Close range combat basically. To counter this:

-CC. Crouch cancel everything. Just spam Dsmash. Seriously, sooooo good
-UpB out of shield. If you're below a "battlefield top platform", land on it and follow up (preferably by ledge cancelling it). If not, either fastfall back down before your opponent, or find a ledge to cancel on. Most people arent fast enough to break your shield, and if you keep buffering it, samus will in theory do it in the first frame she doesnt have shield stun, AKA, instant punish.
--> Nair out of shield works almost just as well. Get frame perfect with it and you'll punish anyone who doesnt shine after a SHFFL
-Wave dash back. As simple as it sounds, its super effective. Bait out your opponent, and hit him with basically anything. Grab, jab, dtilt at low percents. Fsmash and dsmash at higher percents.
-->Wave dash back into ftilt is awesome. Ftilt in general is awesome. You can literally walk towards someone ftilting, and they wont know what to do. Get good at aiming it and you can hit people out of their aerial approaches.
-Jab cancel their shield. Know how to do this. If you happen to be next to someone shielding, grabbing may not be the best option depending on the matchup. Jab canceling is a huge mindgame with samus and if you're good at it will yield crazy results. Jab is one of her faster hitboxes, and surprisingly her second jab has good knockback in higher percents to setup an edgeguard.
-Don't shield grab. While it may work in some instances, her grab is downright bad. OoS might be even worse if you miss. Contrary to what I just said, shield grabs have a lot of reward, and it'll work on some moves that have a lot of ending lag. Your opponents will catch on QUICK as soon as you pull some off though. It's almost embarrassing if you get shield grabbed by samus. You have quicker OoS options to utilize, dont get stuck into thinking you can punish your opponent by shield grabbing him.
-Crawl. Super OP. Its like your jigglypuff, crouching, moving. Crawl titls can lead into Usmash. Crawl tilts in general can help you travel and is an awesome cross-up. Bait out opponents and dtilt/dmash them.

There is so much more I can type out, but I'm hoping this can give you enough ideas to work with. The idea behind samus's stage control is that you have a missile(s) out they have to worry about, and a moving samus they have to worry about as well. I mean, thats how I envision it. All the stuff I listed out are basic guidelines I usually follow in every matchup
 

FoxBlaze71

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Nice writeup! I'm trying to learn Samus myself after being a long time Brawl scrub and that advice should help a lot. I don't get the underuse of SWD either, two frames is pretty lenient.
 

Narpas_sword

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SWD shouldn't be used in neutral game. its a giant telegraphing move. you can read the SWD thread to understand my points (and others) on this matter. =)

Play samus to her ground defense strengths. if someone is out camping you, camp HARDER. there shouldn't be anyone who is a better zoner.

Peach / zelda and link can all give trouble to make you want to go on offence, but Zair should frustrate them enough to stop turnip/din/rang spam.
 
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FoxBlaze71

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True, but missiles at least give you somewhat of a covered approach because of how conspicuous the bomb half of the tech is.

I mained Snake in Brawl, so I should be right at home sitting on one side of the screen and laming everyone out with projectiles.
 

ES Lite

The Real Slim Shady
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I'm pretty sure its a 3 frame window in pm; in melee it was a frame and a half, and they ended up doubling it I think..
 

Narpas_sword

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1.5 frames? that doesnt even...

in melee it was bomb. direction frame 41, opposite direction frame 42.

no idea what it is now. I just know if i do it like melee i get it. and my success rate is a lot higher.
 

FoxBlaze71

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http://smashboards.com/threads/samuss-super-dash.343455/ Post #3.

If it was (Input Direction) frame 41, (Input Direction) frame 42 in Melee, wouldn't it be a 2F window?

Edit: That topic is old, so that should also be considered, but I don't see much of a reason for the devs to alter the timing more than they already did.
 
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Chevy

Smash Ace
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Mar 12, 2014
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Melee = 2 frame window for 2 inputs. PM = 3 frame window for 2 inputs. In Melee there is one possible input for it, in PM there is 3, so it's essentially 3 times easier.
 

FoxBlaze71

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That makes sense. You have 1 frame of leniency whether you inputted them too fast, too slowly, or delayed between them.
 

FoxBlaze71

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I don't think it's possible from anywhere but ground level. I went into training and could only do them on the ground, but that may just be my execution sucking. I'm never seen another Samus start one from the air either.
 

Narpas_sword

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i start them from the air all the time =p

but usually at a height where id hit the ground around the same time as if d started from ground.

you can do them from ledge hanging too.
 

FoxBlaze71

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That explains it, I was double jumping, LOL. Thanks for the info though, the ledge part especially. I can see doing all kinds of crazy **** with that.
 

Chevy

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ooh, so how does it work framewise?

left frame 41 -> right 42
+
left 42 -> right 43?

what else?

left 41 -> right 43?
Exactly, and it's always frames 41-43 I believe. You can do them from the air because you don't bounce up as much from the bomb while airborne.
 

Eisen

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Thanks for the support, guys. I've been playing a little bit better today as Samus, and getting better with missile cancels on platforms akin to PS2. So, that's good news.
 

Litt

Samus
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I'm pretty sure its a 3 frame window in pm; in melee it was a frame and a half, and they ended up doubling it I think..
Only one frame window in melee, frame 41 input the direction opposite you want to go, frame 42 the direction you want to go, that half a frame window lets you kind of swd but its not much distance at all, just shows you were kinda close
 

Litt

Samus
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Also its not when you hit the ground, if you advance it frame by frame in melee, you hit the ground, then you slightly bounce up then 3 frames after that little weird bounce up animation if when you do the back then foward, same in Pm but idk if the bounce up is there b/c we dont have debug menu to play the game frame by frame, but its not when you hit the ground, its actually a few frames after
 

Kaysick

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This is the exact Down B (SpecialLw) frame data:

Bit Variable Clear: LA-Bit[120] = false
If Compare: IC-Basic[20003] == 19
Or Compare: IC-Basic[20003] == 20
Basic Variable Set: LA-Basic[67] = 2
Else
Basic Variable Set: LA-Basic[67] = 1
End If
Float Variable Set: RA-Float[6] = 0
Bit Variable Set: RA-Bit[16] = true
Asynchronous Timer: frames=9
Bit Variable Set: RA-Bit[20] = true
Subroutine SubRoutine2 in the SubRoutines list
Bit Variable Set: RA-Bit[17] = true
Basic Variable Set: LA-Basic[67] = 2
Asynchronous Timer: frames=40
If On Ground:
Float Variable Set: RA-Float[5] = IC-Basic[1011]
If Compare: RA-Float[5] > 0
Float Variable Set: RA-Float[6] = 1
Else
If Compare: RA-Float[5] < 0
Float Variable Set: RA-Float[6] = 2
End If
End If
Synchronous Timer: frames=2
Float Variable Set: RA-Float[5] = IC-Basic[1011]
If Compare: RA-Float[6] == 1
If Compare: RA-Float[5] < 0
Float Variable Multiply: RA-Float[5] *= 25
Add/Subtract Character Momentum: Horizontal Speed=RA-Float[5], Vertical Speed=0
End If
Else
If Compare: RA-Float[6] == 2
If Compare: RA-Float[5] > 0
Float Variable Multiply: RA-Float[5] *= 25
Add/Subtract Character Momentum: Horizontal Speed=RA-Float[5], Vertical Speed=0
End If
End If
End If
End If
Asynchronous Timer: frames=43
Bit Variable Clear: RA-Bit[17] = false
Subroutine SubRoutine1 in the SubRoutines list
Basic Variable Set: LA-Basic[67] = 1
Asynchronous Timer: frames=44
Subroutine SubRoutine3 in the SubRoutines list
Basic Variable Set: LA-Basic[67] = 0
Asynchronous Timer: frames=46
Bit Variable Set: RA-Bit[19] = true


Just going through BrawlBox, it actually happens Frame 42 and 43. Going off what Barbie is saying, Frame 41 is still the opposite direction and Frame 42-43 is the direction you want to go.
 

Litt

Samus
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This is the exact Down B (SpecialLw) frame data:

Bit Variable Clear: LA-Bit[120] = false
If Compare: IC-Basic[20003] == 19
Or Compare: IC-Basic[20003] == 20
Basic Variable Set: LA-Basic[67] = 2
Else
Basic Variable Set: LA-Basic[67] = 1
End If
Float Variable Set: RA-Float[6] = 0
Bit Variable Set: RA-Bit[16] = true
Asynchronous Timer: frames=9
Bit Variable Set: RA-Bit[20] = true
Subroutine SubRoutine2 in the SubRoutines list
Bit Variable Set: RA-Bit[17] = true
Basic Variable Set: LA-Basic[67] = 2
Asynchronous Timer: frames=40
If On Ground:
Float Variable Set: RA-Float[5] = IC-Basic[1011]
If Compare: RA-Float[5] > 0
Float Variable Set: RA-Float[6] = 1
Else
If Compare: RA-Float[5] < 0
Float Variable Set: RA-Float[6] = 2
End If
End If
Synchronous Timer: frames=2
Float Variable Set: RA-Float[5] = IC-Basic[1011]
If Compare: RA-Float[6] == 1
If Compare: RA-Float[5] < 0
Float Variable Multiply: RA-Float[5] *= 25
Add/Subtract Character Momentum: Horizontal Speed=RA-Float[5], Vertical Speed=0
End If
Else
If Compare: RA-Float[6] == 2
If Compare: RA-Float[5] > 0
Float Variable Multiply: RA-Float[5] *= 25
Add/Subtract Character Momentum: Horizontal Speed=RA-Float[5], Vertical Speed=0
End If
End If
End If
End If
Asynchronous Timer: frames=43
Bit Variable Clear: RA-Bit[17] = false
Subroutine SubRoutine1 in the SubRoutines list
Basic Variable Set: LA-Basic[67] = 1
Asynchronous Timer: frames=44
Subroutine SubRoutine3 in the SubRoutines list
Basic Variable Set: LA-Basic[67] = 0
Asynchronous Timer: frames=46
Bit Variable Set: RA-Bit[19] = true


Just going through BrawlBox, it actually happens Frame 42 and 43. Going off what Barbie is saying, Frame 41 is still the opposite direction and Frame 42-43 is the direction you want to go.
Its actually a 2 frame window now so frames 40 and 41 are the opposite direction you desire to go, much more lenient of a window
 

Eisen

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Thanks again for all the help, guys. Sorry to bump an older thread, but I thought I'd say it. I have my good days and bad days, but I think I understand Samus enough to the point where I can say she's surpassed my Lucas, who now lacks the proper practice to even tech properly with, so it's more incentive to use Samus (Probably still know more about Lucas, but the Samus is more relevant/practiced). Never thought I'd see this day come. Since Samus was so bad in Brawl and Melee players were so good, I never thought I'd get a hold of Samus, but... here I am.

It's thanks to you good folks that my understanding was furthered. Shoutouts to Esam too for kicking my ass enough times to convince me that Samus was a character whose style I'd enjoy.
 
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Chevy

Smash Ace
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Mar 12, 2014
Messages
736
Its actually a 2 frame window now so frames 40 and 41 are the opposite direction you desire to go, much more lenient of a window
I think the extra frame got added to the end so it's 41-43.

42 can also be the direction you want to go though.

3 ways to input(left to right):
41->left, 42->right (Melee timing)
42->left, 43->right
41->left, 43->right
 
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Litt

Samus
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Feb 2, 2013
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I think the extra frame got added to the end so it's 41-43.

42 can also be the direction you want to go though.

3 ways to input(left to right):
41->left, 42->right (Melee timing)
42->left, 43->right
41->left, 43->right
I doubt that is correct because that would be a 3 frame allotted frame window now, I believe they just added a frame to the onset and off set instead of increasing the window as a whole for the entire tech by 2 frames, so 40+41 for onset of inputted opposite direction with 42 and 43 being the frames for the desired inputted direction, which is what it is beyond easy to do now, if there was just a one frame inputted opposite direction there would still be a number of incorrect inputted swds where you go the opposite direction you wished to go. But then again, i dont practice the game and the tech has been made much easier so I may just be too used to how difficult it was in melee.
 
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Chevy

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2014
Messages
736
I doubt that is correct because that would be a 3 frame allotted frame window now, I believe they just added a frame to the onset and off set instead of increasing the window as a whole for the entire tech by 2 frames, so 40+41 for onset of inputted opposite direction with 42 and 43 being the frames for the desired inputted direction, which is what it is beyond easy to do now, if there was just a one frame inputted opposite direction there would still be a number of incorrect inputted swds where you go the opposite direction you wished to go. But then again, i dont practice the game and the tech has been made much easier so I may just be too used to how difficult it was in melee.
They just made it 1 frame easier. It was 2 frames for 2 inputs before, now it's a 3 frames for 2 inputs. Pretty sure someone from PMDT explained it just like this when 3.0 came out. And I do go backwards once in a blue moon.
 

Litt

Samus
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They just made it 1 frame easier. It was 2 frames for 2 inputs before, now it's a 3 frames for 2 inputs. Pretty sure someone from PMDT explained it just like this when 3.0 came out. And I do go backwards once in a blue moon.
Yes I think you go backwards because you inputted the command too late :p, but im not 100% sure myself, feels larger than 3 frames though
 
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