Fatty Syndrome

[tasteless gentleman]

First of all, this is NOT a bowser moan thread.

Anyways, We all know that fatties are usually the heaviest in the game and that their size is suppose to prolong their lives/stocks.

However due to their size and usually middle combo weight, they are often comboed much longer and with stuff that usually doesn't or shouldn't work. They are also much bigger targets so they often get camped out if the character is adept thast aspect.

Now this would be fine if they had something extra to their actual size like range for example. I have looked at frame data and there seems to be a direct correlation to power and how fast/punishable the move is so i want to say the size thing has not a lot to do with it. Longevity is often trumped when they are comboed up until 60-80% from one grab or well timed hit. Take jiggly puff for example, she lives forever because she is small and floaty and escapes almost all combos that end in a kill move.

Now I do have a few ideas that would help with fatty syndrome like even less hit stun or an additional 2 degree to their DI to help them escape. But i would like to hear other peoples input and feed back on this.

Also I apologize for the recent bowser moans and groans, it took me longer than i would like to admit that people agree on certain topics. But from now on I wont bring up bowser unless he has a direct correlation to something of value in the thread.

Anyways, lets discuss fatty syndrome and its direct correlation to the characters use/viabilty and Ideas to make being bigger better.

 

[Farquaad]

Lose weight, choose the superior turtle

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Lose weight, choose the superior turtle

Hmmm... as i can appreciate the humor in this, lets try not to derail this thread immediately please.

How about reasoning as to why being small is better or how it prolongs longevity or something?

 

[Farquaad]

Hmmm... as i can appreciate the humor in this, lets try not to derail this thread immediately please.

How about reasoning as to why being small is better or how it prolongs longevity or something?

I'm not a dev, so this could easily be wrong, but I believe things like DI are simply part of the physics engine and might be difficult to change specific to a character in the way you suggest (angle). Also, changing the angle won't improve him terribly, he's still so heavy so low percentage combos will still extend really easily. Reducing hitstun like you suggest when you have such a fast acting up-b could also make Bowser feel particularly frustrating at mid level play, similar to how his armor was in 3.5.

The problem with fatties is legitimately that they're just too fat, and that isn't something easy or intuitive to fix sadly. Even by the time one becomes "mid-tier" or viable in top level play, the mid/low level players will complain because balancing a character like that makes them feel overpowered.

Idk, I haven't reached a skill level where I feel it fair to weigh in on something even devs haven't been able to balance successfully. ****posting is something I've reached a higher skill level at. Have to play to your strengths

 

[Zefklop]

Give them more distance on their SDI

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

More active frames. Use that size as an advantage.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Give them more distance on their SDI

Actually after what Farquaad said, this may actually not be the answer. i do think he was slightly confused about bowsers Up B in the air, there is no invincibility so it wont just out beat something more like a trade. (same with dk and zard but the have very decent down air attacks but only to create distance and not cheese ko).

More active frames? like on his attacks AuraMaudeGone ? Like if DK or zard are getting comboed and they use a combo break neutral or dair but have a buff for faster frame data?


Anyways all very good and interesting points. I originally thought more DI would be the answer BUT you may be right and it may be too hard to program such a thing.

 

[Droß]

Perhaps add the ability for certain moves on the fatties to cancel out of hitstun after a certain amount of frames? So for instance, if NAIR could cancel hitstun as soon as frame 50, then you can effectively clip guaranteed combo strings against them, or at least make the player facing them rethink going in for the next hit. This could be also used to give some other moves more purpose or versatility. This would be applied per character per move of course.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Perhaps add the ability for certain moves on the fatties to cancel out of hitstun after a certain amount of frames? So for instance, if NAIR could cancel hitstun as soon as frame 50, then you can effectively clip guaranteed combo strings against them, or at least make the player facing them rethink going in for the next hit. This could be also used to give some other moves more purpose or versatility. This would be applied per character per move of course.

That was actually why bowser's nair was probably nerfed, the threat of an armoured nair was always there when you were comboing bowser. And it showed in matches when the opponent was not sure when to approach and try to continue the combo. Its still there but for sure not potent, however it was probably a toxic element at the time (but not as much as KK armour or dash attack) but looking at it now, maybe its not as bad as i thought?

 

[JOE!]

Honestly, changing "Global" attributes like hitstun, DI, and so on is a wrong path to go down for the fatties as it bends the rules too far.

Instead, it should really be looked at on a case-by-case basis as well as in terms of actually balancing their size as a weakness. Essentially, they should be treated like spacies in how powerful tools get justified via defensive weakness. DDD is almost in that butter zone with his amazing grab game and massive range + actual survival ability + waddles to absorb projectiles/is an actual projectile (sorta), but is still big and combo-prone. Essentially they should feel "Big and Dangerous" instead of just being punching bags. Give them good frame data, meaty moves, and so on so that they can bash their way through other characters while at the same time get hit hard if they mess up due to size as a counter balance.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Honestly, changing "Global" attributes like hitstun, DI, and so on is a wrong path to go down for the fatties as it bends the rules too far.

Instead, it should really be looked at on a case-by-case basis as well as in terms of actually balancing their size as a weakness. Essentially, they should be treated like spacies in how powerful tools get justified via defensive weakness. DDD is almost in that butter zone with his amazing grab game and massive range + actual survival ability + waddles to absorb projectiles/is an actual projectile (sorta), but is still big and combo-prone. Essentially they should feel "Big and Dangerous" instead of just being punching bags. Give them good frame data, meaty moves, and so on so that they can bash their way through other characters while at the same time get hit hard if they mess up due to size as a counter balance.

Dont forget DDD throws and edge guard abilities are... probably top 5 in my opinion, hes an odd fatty but i really think he is closest to being "almost there" but i think that is because he is kinda floaty and weird weighted.

And no I agree a global change to DI and hitstun would mess the game up, i think maybe looking at it like you said as case by case because obviously some Characters can escape better than others (DDD) while the weirdest combos happen just because of size and weight (dk, bowser).

Frame data would be a big start but i also think air speed would help alot too as because of the inadvertent recovery buff it would give.

I think less hit stun on the heavies would help but at the same time without the frame data i dont think it would help as much as i think... Being heavy is suppose to be a longevity and threat thing, but i think a jiggly puff or peach can be way scarier than a charizard.

Actually while im thinking about size, what is the cut off for being "fat"? Falcon and ganon are pretty big targets but i never really see them struggle with fatty syndrome and wario is certainly Wide but hes pretty short and has good air speed. So is fatty syndrome really a size thing or is it possibly the stats that come with the size?

 

[JOE!]

Its definitely a Size issue. Samus and Charizard have the exact same weight, but guess who gets comboed way harder even with an extra jump?

I think to properly quantify this i should go and graph character sizes, especially during "hit stun" animations.

 

[CORY]

Its definitely a Size issue. Samus and Charizard have the exact same weight, but guess who gets comboed way harder even with an extra jump?

I think to properly quantify this i should go and graph character sizes, especially during "hit stun" animations.

Don't underestimate fall speed. Samus is a very floaty heavyweight, and that fallspeed does wonders for not getting combo'd hard.

 

[AceGamer]

Actually while im thinking about size, what is the cut off for being "fat"? Falcon and ganon are pretty big targets but i never really see them struggle with fatty syndrome and wario is certainly Wide but hes pretty short and has good air speed. So is fatty syndrome really a size thing or is it possibly the stats that come with the size?

Ganondorf and Falcon are only tall, not fat. Being a fattie is mostly a width based thing as well as being tall too and some characters only seem wide because of their stance animation.

 

[Bazkip]

I think you guys are underestimating Ganon's size, dude is huge lol. He's somewhat wider and much taller than any other humanoid, seriously just go look at him in game standing next to Falcon/Ike/Link/Snake etc. I like to say he's on the "lower bound" of fatties, if you really want I suppose you could put him in his own classification (Semi-fatty?) below the other fatties. He definitely falls right below the four "true fatties" in terms of comboability due to size, putting him in with the other humanoids is just incorrect.

 

[mimgrim]

Ganon is in the fatty class. Dude got some width to him while also being tall.

That shouldn't even be up for debate lol.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Either their weight attribute needs to make a real difference (it never will because grabs will always be powerful and fat chance of PMDT increasing CC effectiveness) or their ratio of coverage+strength+speed needs to be higher. Fatties are slow obv, so they are supposed to be stronger, but their moves get slowed down to compensate for their better strength/coverage when their slower movement speed already compensates for that. That's all there really is to it, make them faster, either in terms of movement, in terms of attacks, or both.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

More active frames? like on his attacks AuraMaudeGone

Yes. JOE! Elaborated quite nicely already. I wouldn't suggest making their moves faster per say, but keep the hitboxes out a little longer. (Maybe 5f~6f of active hit bubbles).
They're big and meaty, their moves should be too.

 

[123456789pop]

i have a problem wiht project m, i tried to run the hacked version and i installed homebrew but then i decided to use the hackless version from the website so i cleared my sd card then i extracted the files for hackless and i put in the sd.then i went to stage builder and i tryed to lode project m but i screen showed up and it said at the bottom of the screen gecko os not found (above this was some code stuff i dont remember) it also said it was hanging HELP!!

 

[DrinkingFood]

i have a problem wiht project m, i tried to run the hacked version and i installed homebrew but then i decided to use the hackless version from the website so i cleared my sd card then i extracted the files for hackless and i put in the sd.then i went to stage builder and i tryed to lode project m but i screen showed up and it said at the bottom of the screen gecko os not found (above this was some code stuff i dont remember) it also said it was hanging HELP!!

this is not the place to ask for help lol

 

[123456789pop]

where should i ask

srrry i am new to this

this is not the place to ask for help lol

 

[DrinkingFood]

where should i ask

srrry i am new to this

http://smashboards.com/forums/help-and-support.363/
make a thread there

 

[Droß]

Did I misspeak? When I said "per move per character" I really meant "judge what it gets applied to on a per move per character basis", and not "globally". Sorry about that; a global change to hitstun like that would be super excessive IMO.

 

[Nausicaa]

Give DK all of Peach's frame data...
But keep his speed, and scale all those hitboxes to fit his size.
I wanna see that thing in action.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Ganon is in the fatty class. Dude got some width to him while also being tall.

That shouldn't even be up for debate lol.

I actually will disagree, ganon and falcon are the same size almost and i still would not classify them as fat, but IF i was to classify them as fat then i ask what is the difference betweem ganon and say... charizard? Why is ganon not so combo fodder as DDD? I can tell you why, its the same reason as why i dont consider wario a fatty.

They are only "fat" on 1 edge of the spectrum in terms of length or width, not both. Maybe i am mistaken but i think to be "fat" you have to be both and they simply are not, plus they have a good deal of tools to escape and recover which mitigates the "fat" problem. As for falcon... Hes way to fast to be fat, hes tall yea but his nair is like a damn projectile that covers half of FD.

Either their weight attribute needs to make a real difference (it never will because grabs will always be powerful and fat chance of PMDT increasing CC effectiveness) or their ratio of coverage+strength+speed needs to be higher. Fatties are slow obv, so they are supposed to be stronger, but their moves get slowed down to compensate for their better strength/coverage when their slower movement speed already compensates for that. That's all there really is to it, make them faster, either in terms of movement, in terms of attacks, or both.

I agree, nothing else to really say, Buffing CC on fatties would only make them CC stuff at 100%+ and i honestly dont find that needed.

Give DK all of Peach's frame data...
But keep his speed, and scale all those hitboxes to fit his size.
I wanna see that thing in action.

*shrugs* i think it would be neat lol, have you ever considered throwing Minus DK on PM's engine just for the fun of it? I did it once to look at some frame data and minus DK has alot of neat things going for him.

 

[Spralwers]

My preference would be to buff the frama data on normals. Fatties have historically been unviable in smash (I'm talking the vanilla smash games not PM). In a platform based fighter, movement is key to position for moves, but the normals of the fatties don't make up for their lack of ability to position themselves. Especially since many of the better moving characters have equal if not better normals, especially kill moves (lol Falco fsmash, Sheik fair, Fox usmash, Falcon knee, and I could go on), and conversion tools that work so well due to their speed.

Another solution, which seems to have been applied to Bowser Smash 4, is to increase the movement of the fatties. In terms of "design" I don't like this because it's homogenizing the cast, but man does it look cool and scary to see a huge chunk of mass chasing down a little chunk of mass really quick.

You can also give the fatties unique, powerful tools, designed specifically for the faster characters (or any other potentially troublesome characters). I think PM DDD is a decent example of this. He has one of the few toolkits that really keep powerful, relevant characters like Star Fox and Fire Emblem in check, but then he struggles so much against random characters like Super Mario Bros and The Legend of Zelda. It's a clearly polarizing design which some like and others don't.

You can also use mechanics like armor, or have the game treat fatties inherently differently because they're fatties. Guess the sky's the limit there. I think these sorts of adjustments either work out horribly or amazingly.

And then you can mix all those ideas. Ganon is a mix of good normals and unique, powerful tools. Zard is a mix of higher movement and good normals. DK's kind of got everything - decent movement, good normals, and unique and powerful tools (punch and cargo throw). Bowser's all mechanics (armor) with a slight mix of unique tools (claw).

As of now, it looks to me like the fatties are best reserved for counter picks. There are MUs and stages where I would actually have reason to use Ganondorf over any spacie and any swordie for reasons other than disrespect, which is unheard of in any of the vanilla smash games he's in. So there is progress being made, which I'm pretty content with for the time being.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

My preference would be to buff the frama data on normals. Fatties have historically been unviable in smash (I'm talking the vanilla smash games not PM). In a platform based fighter, movement is key to position for moves, but the normals of the fatties don't make up for their lack of ability to position themselves. Especially since many of the better moving characters have equal if not better normals, especially kill moves (lol Falco fsmash, Sheik fair, Fox usmash, Falcon knee, and I could go on), and conversion tools that work so well due to their speed.

Another solution, which seems to have been applied to Bowser Smash 4, is to increase the movement of the fatties. In terms of "design" I don't like this because it's homogenizing the cast, but man does it look cool and scary to see a huge chunk of mass chasing down a little chunk of mass really quick.

You can also give the fatties unique, powerful tools, designed specifically for the faster characters (or any other potentially troublesome characters). I think PM DDD is a decent example of this. He has one of the few toolkits that really keep powerful, relevant characters like Star Fox and Fire Emblem in check, but then he struggles so much against random characters like Super Mario Bros and The Legend of Zelda. It's a clearly polarizing design which some like and others don't.

You can also use mechanics like armor, or have the game treat fatties inherently differently because they're fatties. Guess the sky's the limit there. I think these sorts of adjustments either work out horribly or amazingly.

And then you can mix all those ideas. Ganon is a mix of good normals and unique, powerful tools. Zard is a mix of higher movement and good normals. DK's kind of got everything - decent movement, good normals, and unique and powerful tools (punch and cargo throw). Bowser's all mechanics (armor) with a slight mix of unique tools (claw).

As of now, it looks to me like the fatties are best reserved for counter picks. There are MUs and stages where I would actually have reason to use Ganondorf over any spacie and any swordie for reasons other than disrespect, which is unheard of in any of the vanilla smash games he's in. So there is progress being made, which I'm pretty content with for the time being.

I agree with most of this. What kind of tool deal with speed demons and projectiles character but has less effect on players like mario, zelda, ect?

Also the thing is with fatties i notice is that their MU spread is Really bad, DK and Bowser come to mind Both being 2nd and 1st to be counterpicked, lose the initial match up, ect.

And alot of their bad MU are like really really bad, like 80-20 bad. So how would we even out the bad match ups to 60-40 while not crushing anything thats a winning match up and keeping even match ups even? Is that even possible?

 

[mimgrim]

ganon and falcon are the same size almost

No they aren't.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

No they aren't.

Ill double check but i always felt like they are equally tall. Either way, do we consider ganon a fatty or not really?

 

[mimgrim]

Ganon is a fatty.

Shouldn't be up for debate.

He is super tall, tallest humanoid on the game, while also having a lot of width to him and is as much combo food as any other fatty and has same base design as the other fatties.

 

[Player -0]

Also relevant to add that hitstun (bceause of knockback) is reduced for heavier characters. Fall speed and size are the main reason people get combo'ed.

Also others factors like being able to land (moves, DJ, fast fall speed) and then recovery.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Ganon is a fatty.

Shouldn't be up for debate.

He is super tall, tallest humanoid on the game, while also having a lot of width to him and is as much combo food as any other fatty and has same base design as the other fatties.

So hes mega tall, but is he on the wide side of the spectrum too is all im infering. I think hes tall, but to say that making him tall makes him a combo food fatty i dont agree with. Hes slow and powerful, but fat... i dont think so. I mean ike is slow and powerful, hes just not tall, but if he was taller, would you call him fat? I would not. Maybe thats a bad example but im saying to be fat you have to be both wide and tall.

Also relevant to add that hitstun (bceause of knockback) is reduced for heavier characters. Fall speed and size are the main reason people get combo'ed.

Also others factors like being able to land (moves, DJ, fast fall speed) and then recovery.

So basically fatties are just too big, but i dont think size can be fixed. That being said, i also dont think the hitstun reduction is really helping fatties because the frame data/recoveries/double jump/escape options in general are lacking.

 

[mimgrim]

Ganondorf is on the wide side of the spectrum though lmao.

All you have to do is look at him in-game to see this. It isn't that hard.

 

[AceGamer]

he's fatter than all the other human shapes but it's cause his arms and legs are just thick as hell, Ganondorf doesn't have a big round belly like Zard, D3, Bowser and DK is just a big ball of fur lol so while he does get comboed to hell and back it's hard to put Ganon in the same league of fatness as those 4. but he still qualifies for semi fatty at least

 

[True Fool]

What are your opinions on giving them projectiles? Change Bowser's b into an angle-influenced fireball charge shot. I dunno though, flame breath can actually be useful, changing it might not do much more than maybe tricking a few players early on. But I always wondered why he had flame breath when Bowser actually shoots fireballs in games.

DK's down-b isn't great, but giving him barrels like minus might be too much.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

What are your opinions on giving them projectiles? Change Bowser's b into an angle-influenced fireball charge shot. I dunno though, flame breath can actually be useful, changing it might not do much more than maybe tricking a few players early on. But I always wondered why he had flame breath when Bowser actually shoots fireballs in games.

DK's down-b isn't great, but giving him barrels like minus might be too much.

I feel like giving them projectiles doesnt really solve the touch of death syndrome.

Ganondorf is on the wide side of the spectrum though lmao.

All you have to do is look at him in-game to see this. It isn't that hard.

Semi-Fat but not in the league of the others.

 

[Draco_The]

But I always wondered why he had flame breath when Bowser actually shoots fireballs in games.

Bowser bomb and fire breath are both from Super Mario 64.

 

[AceGamer]

Bowser bomb and fire breath are both from Super Mario 64.

although in fire breaths case it only really happened during the 1st fight, 2nd and last fight Bowser was shooting fireballs that would stay in place on the ground and continue to burn or shoot fire up into the air and make it rain fireballs

 

[MLGF]

Make their other weaknesses less severe, like how despite Charizard being fat, his other traits are still good (range, run speed, etc) while bowser has way more the his hurtbox to worry about. Being fat is already severe, make their everything else at least decent.

But don't make their strengths too strong. I, as many others do, admire a versatile kit over a centralized kit

 

[True Fool]

I feel like giving them projectiles doesnt really solve the touch of death syndrome.

It was more so a suggestion to give them a means of keep-away, like DDD. If they had higher air mobility, like Wario, would that help them get out of combos, or is that unrelated to di? And would that be too much considering they both have long reaching bairs?