Falcon initial dash speed vs running speed? also other questions

[JLeeBaby]

since I can't seem to find this information anywhere else for the life of me, I'm hoping one of you guys will know the answer to these obscure questions...

1. Is falcons initial dash speed faster/slower or the same speed as his running speed?

2. Is his initial dash speed the same speed throughout the animation? (if you keep holding forward. I know if you let go of the control stick sometime before the animation ends you will come to a stop)

3. what are the exact numbers for falcons max initial dashing speed, max running speed, and max air speed?

4. Is falcon's max dash/run speed faster or slower than his max air speed?

5. assuming you are at falcons max ground speed (whether its during dashing or running idk) and you jump holding forward the whole time in the air, what airborne frames do you start to decelerate? or just how does aerial deceleration work?


I know they are weird and obscure questions but if you have the answer to any of these ples ples share knowledge I would appreciate it <333

 

[Nishifue]

aaaaaaaaaa

 

[JLeeBaby]

The initial part is faster. Have you heard of fox trotting? It's a technique that mixes up your movement.

How do you know this? Yes I have heard of foxtrotting. It's pretty... FOXY OOH HO HOHHH (I apologize)

So does that mean if you jump within your initial dash your speed in the air would be faster than if you jumped while in the running animation?

 

[タオー]

This is all off of the top of my head, and way better explained by Gravy in a number of vid's that they have posted on their Youtube channel (Captain Falcon) from their 20GX stream, so I'd check there for more clarity, but...

5. assuming you are at falcons max ground speed (whether its during dashing or running idk) and you jump holding forward the whole time in the air, what airborne frames do you start to decelerate? or just how does aerial deceleration work?

There are 3 elements to consider in the scenario. First, the mechanics of jump. There are two types of jump (pragmatically; in actuality, the states are the exact same [Jumpsquat-> Jump], but for the sake of what options you have in each scenario, they differ slightly), coined by some to be "dash jump" and "neutral jump". Out of "dash jump", your initial ground velocity converts into your initial airborne velocity, which you can adjust while airborne with Drift. Dash Jump can be accessed from either the Dash or Run animation (Some of the cast can access this boost to Initial Ground Velocity from WD or WL). For neutral jump, on the 3rd frame (For Falcon) of your Jumpsquat animation (after you have initiated jump but haven't left the ground yet) you can chose the initial velocity of your jump by selecting a position with your control stick on the x-axis. This allows you to jump a number of ranges from backwards to forwards. "Neutral Jump" can be accessed out of a number of states, such as Stand, Pivot, Crouch, and Shield. Since you have zero velocity out of these states, there is no prior velocity that affects your Initial Airborne Velocity, allowing you full access to all the varying forms/degrees of jump (back/forward jump across multiple velocities, selected on the 3rd frame of Jumpsquat). Falcon has a max aerial velocity (I don't know the exact numbers) and it is similar to his dash, so in your specific scenario, if you kept holding forward out of a "dash jump", your velocity would change very little compared to if you just did a "dash jump" and let your stick fall back to neutral while airborne; however, if you held forward out of a "neutral jump", your drift would cause you to accelerate up to your max velocity, given you are airborne long enough. Just remember your Initial Airborne Velocity and your Drift are able to work together to affect your aerial momentum out of either "jump".

Now given this, there is another situation which IIRC responds strangely. Technically, Falcon's fastest movement option is Boost Run. This is performed by Moonwalk -> Stickywalk the direction you're facing (only needs 1 frame) -> Turn around -> Run. This causes Falcon's Moonwalk acceleration to carry over into his Run animation, giving him a quick boost of speed. Now if you jump out of this animation (Run), you will decelerate to your maximum aerial velocity. [I'm going to test this. If someone knows otherwise please let me know.]

 

[Nishifue]

aaaaaaaaaa

 

[protato]

xxxxxxxxxx

 

[Nishifue]

aaaaaaaaaa

 

[coilerr]

one thing to say :

http://smashboards.com/threads/ultimate-ground-movement-analysis-turbo-edition.392367/

 

[tauKhan]

There are two types of jump, coined by some to be "dash jump" and "neutral jump".

"Dash jumps" don't exist, jumps always works the same regardless of which animation you do it out of. The speed you have left after jump squat simply remains (naturally) when you transfer to air, it doesn't matter at all how you acquired the speed. The dash jump/neutral jump division is just a very weird way to interpret the workings and limitations of air control.

 

[JLeeBaby]

yep

yeah, from what I can tell from my practice yesterday and today, Falcons initial dash is faster than his running speed. So if you jump while in your initial dash you will be moving faster in the air (when you leave the ground) than if you jumped while in your running animation. pretty useful to know imho.

I can't really tell if falcons max air speed is the same or SLIGHTLY slower than his dashing/running speed. It's definitely very similiar..

 

[tauKhan]

JLeeBaby Study the thread coilerr linked. You'll find out that falcon's initial dash velocity is 2.16, while his max run velocity is 2.30 . He'll accelerate to his max speed in 2 frames. You can find other interesting stuff there too.

 

[JLeeBaby]

JLeeBaby Study the thread coilerr linked. You'll find out that falcon's initial dash velocity is 2.16, while his max run velocity is 2.30 . He'll accelerate to his max speed in 2 frames. You can find other interesting stuff there too.

yeah I saw that in the thread he linked. It just does not feel like that's true to me when I test it myself, so I'm going to assume its wrong. I think falcon might accelerate in those first 2 frames of his initial dash but then maybe slows down a bit when he enters into his run animation. I could be wrong but that's how it feels to me tbh.

to me it feels like his dash speed goes like this:

1. speed up WITHIN start of initial dash
2. reach max speed while still WITHIN initial dash
3. slow down once initial dash is over and start to enter running animation

 

[tauKhan]

Okay. I would just rather trust hard data acclaimed frame by frame in develop mode than 'feel', and schmooblidon is reliable source. He used a tool recently published by magus420 which makes him able to look at a lot of variables frame by frame, including speed and position. I think you're probably just tricked by the change in the animation.

 

[JLeeBaby]

fair enough. to each his own I guess.

 

[タオー]

"Dash jumps" don't exist, jumps always works the same regardless of which animation you do it out of. The speed you have left after jump squat simply remains (naturally) when you transfer to air, it doesn't matter at all how you acquired the speed. The dash jump/neutral jump division is just a very weird way to interpret the workings and limitations of air control.

I thought that was the case. I was simply regurgitating some half baked notes I had taken from watching 20GX. It helps with explanation, and while the states are not specifically different (both technically jumpsquat-> jump) the control you have with zero initial velocity is more than worth mentioning.

 

[tauKhan]

Yeah, stopping velocity is still very useful, since it allows you to back flip with starting backwards speed (from the added vector from holding backwards during jumpsquat), while from full run speed you can usually only back flip in place by holding against your run direction. I don't think control is the right word though, since you can't jump as far forward from stop. Stopping just shifts the range of possible jump arcs backwards.

I'm strongly against using 'dash jump' as a term since it kind of implies you would need to be dashing to get the effect, which is not true at all for most if not the whole cast. For example, many chars can perfect wl and some even just wd to get more speed for the jump than would be possible with dashing/running.

 

[GokuYoshi]

"what the hell is a wave dash"

 

[タオー]

Yeah, stopping velocity is still very useful, since it allows you to back flip with starting backwards speed (from the added vector from holding backwards during jumpsquat), while from full run speed you can usually only back flip in place by holding against your run direction. I don't think control is the right word though, since you can't jump as far forward from stop. Stopping just shifts the range of possible jump arcs backwards.

I'm strongly against using 'dash jump' as a term since it kind of implies you would need to be dashing to get the effect, which is not true at all for most if not the whole cast. For example, many chars can perfect wl and some even just wd to get more speed for the jump than would be possible with dashing/running.

I see the predicament. Have you noticed any limit to aerial speed that can be converted from Initial Ground Velocity?

 

[tauKhan]

I'm not actually sure about that, but I think that limit is lower than the max speed you can jump with. That is to say, even if you move faster than your fastest horizontal jump speed, you need to hold forward before the launch or you'll go shorter.

 

[タオー]

I'm not actually sure about that, but I think that limit is lower than the max speed you can jump with. That is to say, even if you move faster than your fastest horizontal jump speed, you need to hold forward before the launch or you'll go shorter.

So you're saying it should be possible to convert the speed from a boost run into a jump, and if you hold forward on the 3rd frame of jumpsquat it will increase the distance?

 

[tauKhan]

Hmm I probably worded that awkwardly. I meant the ground speed that converts to air is limited by amount a, which is probably lower than boost run speed, and the max horizontal jump speed is limited by value b and b>a, so you still have to use added jump vector to reach b even if the your ground speed was considerably higher than b to begin with. Note that this is just my hypothesis based on intuition, I don't have much to back it up with yet, I'll look into it later.

 

[タオー]

Hmm I probably worded that awkwardly. I meant the ground speed that converts to air is limited by amount a, which is probably lower than boost run speed, and the max horizontal jump speed is limited by value b and b>a, so you still have to use added jump vector to reach b even if the your ground speed was considerably higher than b to begin with. Note that this is just my hypothesis based on intuition, I don't have much to back it up with yet, I'll look into it later.

That was my initial conclusion as well, although needing to full drift forward after the jump is different than I had thought. Looks like it's time to test this out when I get home.

 

[SoapSuds]

There is definitely a hard limit on the amount of momentum you can carry into your jump. For instance if you do a dash into jump you'll get the same speed if your holding forward or if your do a neutral jump (I think it's 2.2 but that's just off the top of my head). I also am pretty sure it's different from the max speed you can get from drifting, so jumps from high speeds have a hard cap on velocity that can transfer in and then slow until they reach the max you can reach with drift.

I might look up some exact numbers sometime tomorrow if I remember this.

 

[tauKhan]

I also am pretty sure it's different from the max speed you can get from drifting, so jumps from high speeds have a hard cap on velocity that can transfer in and then slow until they reach the max you can reach with drift.

Yup, jump animation has much higher horizontal velocity cap than normal fall. So as soon as your jump animation ends, you'll swiftly slow down to the max speed of fall. However aerials (I think all, not 100% positive, but at least nair and fair with falcon do) also have higher max speed than fall, so you can set back the slow down of a jump by timing aerial at the end of jump animation, and thus extend the reach of the jump.

 

[タオー]

Yup, jump animation has much higher horizontal velocity cap than normal fall. So as soon as your jump animation ends, you'll swiftly slow down to the max speed of fall. However aerials (I think all, not 100% positive, but at least nair and fair with falcon do) also have higher max speed than fall, so you can set back the slow down of a jump by timing aerial at the end of jump animation, and thus extend the reach of the jump.

That is really good to know. Is that the same reason why I see IC's using uair when recovering with SoPo?

 

[tauKhan]

That is really good to know. Is that the same reason why I see IC's using uair when recovering with SoPo?

Double jumping has (I think, but at least it's usually close) the same horizontal max speed as fall. In addition, you can't use air control to accelerate over the max speed of normal fall even when in a state with a higher speed cap. So uaring when recovering with sopo shouldn't help at all to my knowledge. The only cases where aerialing after dj helps is when the dj itself slows you down or restricts control, which applies only to puff and kirby IIRC. Also I think mewtwo will go further if he aerials at right timing after dj, since the ending of the dj slows him down.