falco

[Danny of AD 1]

falco is my worst character by far

 

[EddyBearr]

There's an argument to Falco being the best character in the game. It's very hard to argue he's anything worse than #2.

So, no. Not at all. If Falco is your worst character, then it's probably your fault.

 

[AirFair]

Honestly, Falco's only big weakness is his crap recovery. His pressure is so good, and the lasers and dair make him a threat to the unprepared. Falco is definitely one of, if not the best in the game.

 

[Lorenzo The Comic]

I wouldn't say worst by a long shot, I just can't use him right.

 

[pershona]

No, he is at the excatly right place he should be, considering his tools are extremely versatile and he has a a lot of top players showing his great potential. 1 player being bad with a character doesn't make them a bad character

 

[GameRat]

Any character can be terrible if you don't use them correctly. Personally, I think pichu is by far the worst character.
And even so, there still are people who use pichu in tournaments and manage to win.

 

[Varist]

I think Marth deserves #2 because he has an easier fox matchup than falco does and because falco can be very volatile when it comes to the floaty matchups. marth is very solid and consistent in most matchups overall, even sheik is looking like less of a counter to him lately.

 

[Modesty]

I don't think he is overrated. You could argue he could be a place lower or something, but there is no doubt he is top tier.

 

[B-Will]

I think Marth deserves #2 because he has an easier fox matchup than falco does and because falco can be very volatile when it comes to the floaty matchups. marth is very solid and consistent in most matchups overall, even sheik is looking like less of a counter to him lately.

I agree with Varist. The only thing that falco really has over marth is his better matchups over the lower tier characters...but you hardly see low tiers in tourney so I think it isn't relevant!

 

[Spak]

I agree with Varist. The only thing that falco really has over marth is his better matchups over the lower tier characters...but you hardly see low tiers in tourney so I think it isn't relevant!

Falcon is fairly common in-tournament and Falco's MU against Falcon (70-30) is much better than Marth's (50-50)

 

[EddyBearr]

I think Falcon goes only 35-65 against Falco as opposed to 30-70, and I think Falcon goes 45-55 against Marth.

Both Falco and Marth have matchups that aren't overwhelmingly in either character's favor among the top tiers except for Falco-Falcon. Falco's worst matchup is probably just 50-50, and it'd be with one (or even several) of the top tiers.

Marth, on the other hand, has a losing (albeit, not that much) matchup to Sheik, and has trouble with Falcon, Ganon, and Link; Marth still wins those 3 matchups imo, but all those characters can easily compete with Marth.

It can almost be argued that Falco has an advantage on Sheik, and Falco definitely bodies Falcon/Ganon/Link.

Marth is clearly not as good as Falco.

 

[B-Will]

I think Falcon goes only 35-65 against Falco as opposed to 30-70, and I think Falcon goes 45-55 against Marth.

Both Falco and Marth have matchups that aren't overwhelmingly in either character's favor among the top tiers except for Falco-Falcon. Falco's worst matchup is probably just 50-50, and it'd be with one (or even several) of the top tiers.

Marth, on the other hand, has a losing (albeit, not that much) matchup to Sheik, and has trouble with Falcon, Ganon, and Link; Marth still wins those 3 matchups imo, but all those characters can easily compete with Marth.

It can almost be argued that Falco has an advantage on Sheik, and Falco definitely bodies Falcon/Ganon/Link.

Marth is clearly not as good as Falco.

But i think that Falco "struggles" with jiggs iceys and peach moreso than Marth. Blah. It's tough!'

 

[B-Will]

And btw why is Link in the equation? He is practically non-relevant in top play

 

[EddyBearr]

But i think that Falco "struggles" with jiggs iceys and peach moreso than Marth. Blah. It's tough!'

I don't think going 50-50 at worst is struggling. Likewise, Marth also goes about even with Jiggs.

Link is just the extra shame in the pudding. Ganon is probably the spoon, and Falcon is the pudding itself.

 

[Varist]

I think everyone would agree that the only matchups that matter are the ones being played in tournament. And by far the most important matchup for any character in this game, is their matchup vs Fox. I think Falco loses to Fox at the highest level while Marth goes even, losing slightly on Dreamland, and winning hard on FD. It comes down to whether you weight a slight loss to sheik as being detrimental enough that it offsets that he's the best vs. Fox character in the game. Even then Marths have been improving their vs Sheik game a lot lately, as Sheik has become very predictable.

And as we always do with tier lists, looking ahead is just as much of a priority as looking at the current climate. Falco as a character is the slowest moving of the top 4 and laser is going to become more and more of a bandaid for a crippling deficiency than a fundamental strength of the character. Foxes are moving so fast these days that they know how to get in and onto Falco so fast that a lot of those Fox vs Falco matchups are played with very minimal lasering able to be done by the Falco. At that point he's a slow Fox with the threat of a huge combo off of shine OOS, the one thing that keeps Fox in check when he's running around on top of Falco.

Without getting into any more of the messy specifics of matchups and how they've been evolving, I think we will see Marth play reaching new heights with great Marth players learning how to cover every single option and kill off of one single grab conversion, while Falco will fall off because of his lack of threatening grab conversions and his inability to start combos if his opponent doesn't let him get his body into them to shine, while playing a threatening close-range game to neuter his laser threat.

 

[poohbear32]

Wait guys so if I was to play fox where would my best stage to beat him be?

 

[roboticphish]

I think everyone would agree that the only matchups that matter are the ones being played in tournament. And by far the most important matchup for any character in this game, is their matchup vs Fox. I think Falco loses to Fox at the highest level while Marth goes even, losing slightly on Dreamland, and winning hard on FD. It comes down to whether you weight a slight loss to sheik as being detrimental enough that it offsets that he's the best vs. Fox character in the game. Even then Marths have been improving their vs Sheik game a lot lately, as Sheik has become very predictable.

And as we always do with tier lists, looking ahead is just as much of a priority as looking at the current climate. Falco as a character is the slowest moving of the top 4 and laser is going to become more and more of a bandaid for a crippling deficiency than a fundamental strength of the character. Foxes are moving so fast these days that they know how to get in and onto Falco so fast that a lot of those Fox vs Falco matchups are played with very minimal lasering able to be done by the Falco. At that point he's a slow Fox with the threat of a huge combo off of shine OOS, the one thing that keeps Fox in check when he's running around on top of Falco.

Without getting into any more of the messy specifics of matchups and how they've been evolving, I think we will see Marth play reaching new heights with great Marth players learning how to cover every single option and kill off of one single grab conversion, while Falco will fall off because of his lack of threatening grab conversions and his inability to start combos if his opponent doesn't let him get his body into them to shine, while playing a threatening close-range game to neuter his laser threat.

This is a difficult one to assess. I think the Fox-Falco matchup is 50-50, with variations based on player styles. A lot of people are going to point to the speed of modern foxes, their more consistent powershielding and wd oos in between lasers, and their stupidly easy gimps. These are all important, but not matchup-deciding. Falco doesn't need to move super quick to deal with fox. Just about every move he has is useful for comboing him. And if the Falco's shine oos and punish game is on point, the opponent is going to be very wary about any kind of approaches...which allows the lasers to be more prevalent again. There's also the technical demands; while both spacies are difficult, Falco's 6 frame jump squat means most of his tech is inarguably easier to perform (and thus makes him more consistent). And while you bring up Marth's even matchup against Fox, you also point out that Marth loses on DL...and afaik there isn't a stage which favors fox over falco.

Falco's got a good case for number one in the game. He has a slightly advantageous matchup against Sheik, the Peach matchup is looking more even than ever before, and actually has a good chance against a Marth on FD (unlike Fox). His biggest drawback is an even matchup with the floaties whereas Fox dominates them, but as I mentioned, the fact that he's able to compete more evenly with Marth, and his slight advantage over Sheik, lends itself to him being at least #2 if not #1.

 

[Danny of AD 1]

i meant in either melee or brawl

 

[Spak]

i meant in either melee or brawl

If you wanted to discuss Falco in Brawl, there is a completely different section of the boards for that. Falco differs significantly between his Melee and Brawl forms, so I would suggest bringing Brawl Falco up in the Brawl Character Discussion if you wanted more information on him.

 

[Danny of AD 1]

i meant in both games or either the reason i put him under melee was because thats where he debuted its a double game question

 

[poohbear32]

I think everyone would agree that the only matchups that matter are the ones being played in tournament. And by far the most important matchup for any character in this game, is their matchup vs Fox. I think Falcoj
loses to Fox at the highest level while Marth goes even, losing slightly on Dreamland, and winning hard on FD. It comes down to whether you weight a slight loss to sheik as being detrimental enough that it offsets that he's the best vs. Fox character in the game. Even then Marths have been improving their vs Sheik game a lot lately, as Sheik has become very predictable.

And as we always do with tier lists, looking ahead is just as much of a priority as looking at the current climate. Falco as a character is the slowest moving of the top 4 and laser is going to become more and more of a bandaid for a crippling deficiency than a fundamental strength of the character. Foxes are moving so fast these days that they know how to get in and onto Falco so fast that a lot of those Fox vs Falco matchups are played with very minimal lasering able to be done by the Falco. At that point he's a slow Fox with the threat of a huge combo off of shine OOS, the one thing that keeps Fox in check when he's running around on top of Falco.

Without getting into any more of the messy specifics of matchups and how they've been evolving, I think we will see Marth play reaching new heights with great Marth players learning how to cover every single option and kill off of one single grab conversion, while Falco will fall off because of his lack of threatening grab conversions and his inability to start combos if his opponent doesn't let him get his body into them to shine, while playing a threatening close-range game to neuter his laser threat.[/quote

So thus saying that as a fox main I'd have to watch out for falco's shine into dare?