Falco VS Sheik Matchup Help?

[Nox_SSBM]

Hey everbody, i couldnt really find what i was looking for from google, so i thought id come ask here. Recently ive been doing very good in tournaments and weekly's, but every time i have to play against a sheik i struggle. normally i just get techchased until high percents then get fair'd. What is the best way to avoid getting grabbed and what are some key things to do against sheik?

TL;DR Whats the best way to avoid grabs and what are key things to do against sheik?

 

[{Lemons}]

That's a pretty vague question. Here is a vague response, use lasers.

Edit:
Here is perhaps a better response. Sheik is not very good at approaching. You could try playing more passive with lasers, watching and anticipating what she does and countering. Your dair should clean beat her grab attempts. Be aware of her boost grab; it can give her surprising range on her grabs.

If you do get grabbed try to mix up your techs. If all fails you can tech in to center stage making it harder for her to finish you off.

Most importantly every time you get grabbed ask yourself why that happened. If you are able to get a set against a sheik you struggled against recorded that is great to study.

Finally you can always try to ask the sheik players you are playing after the set how they getting their grabs. Most people are happy to give advice if you ask. However please try and ask specific questions otherwise they will only really be able to give you vague answers.

 

[FE_Hector]

Shooting lasers definitely makes Sheik's life into a living Hell, especially if she wants to dash/run at all. Low lasers beat her run (very low profile) clean, so be sure to have control over them. If she tries to do basically anything but dsmash (stupid, but happens) or grab before... ~45%, just CC it and punish from there. If she wants to grab you for shielding, fadeaway dair OoS is actually amazing. If she's above you, a well-timed utilt beats quite literally everything she can throw out.

If/when she gets that one grab, use DI and techs to test her skills to the max. DI one way and tech the other, DI out and tech in place, DI one way and tech that way, DI behind and wakeup shine, any DI + missed tech getup attack, etc are all amazing things to consciously mix up with each other. If they can perfectly techchase every time even as you mix all these things up, I daresay they deserve the stock. Also, they're almost never gonna dsmash/fair you directly out of the tecchchase. You'll very often see them ftilt or dash attack into fair. Hard DI out from the DA/ftilt will make the fair way harder to hit, if it's possible at all. DI in if they DA at a time where only the back portion will hit you (becomes instinct). As one last thing, I know this is just survival DI basics, but you really do get so much out of DIing up and in vs her fair.

 

[Nox_SSBM]

Thanks so much for the help guys!

 

[SSS]

Hey everbody, i couldnt really find what i was looking for from google, so i thought id come ask here. Recently ive been doing very good in tournaments and weekly's, but every time i have to play against a sheik i struggle. normally i just get techchased until high percents then get fair'd. What is the best way to avoid getting grabbed and what are some key things to do against sheik?

TL;DR Whats the best way to avoid grabs and what are key things to do against sheik?

if you're getting a grabbed a lot a common issue is that you're doing high dairs on her shield. you're like hitting the top of her shield with your dair and then she can grab you before your shine comes out. Instead of just approaching with aerials, try laser grab. Try deep laser (as in you laser right in front of her) shine. If it hits her, yay! If she shields, you can either shield grab or fadeaway aerial (meaning you like dair and pull away from her), or if you're sick you can shine again and try to get her to do something out of shield. Shield pressure is hard and complicated and not as simple as people say it is. If you deep laser and she ends up being too far for shine to connect, jab instead, or ftilt, or even fadeaway aerial right there if you think she's going to be coming in. just come in in different ways than laser > aerial.

 

[FE_Hector]

Building off of the shield pressure thing, here are the basics for attacking somebody's shield as Falco:

LOW dair shine
Medium to low nair shine (i prefer to SH nair FF but in a way that the nair comes out as i'm FFing due to nair startup)

After your get the aerial -> shine on their shield, shinegrabs beat practically everything at low levels. IDK how they shape up vs buffered rolls, but frame perfect dubshine beats almost every roll in the game, so dubshine grab is nice.

Othe rmixups include shine fadeaway nair or waveshining their shield for extra style but way more risk.

WBallz pressure isn't actually worth learning because it gives you like... 1 more frame to react to rolls, which isn't really useful in the long run.

Laser grab on shield is great, as mentioned earlier.


As it applies to Sheik, I've found the nair shinegrab to be such an amazing option against Sheik personally. It just comes down to burning the safe nair into muscle memory and then thinking "okay, well they're in shield, so I have to change my inputs slightly."

 

[SSS]

Building off of the shield pressure thing, here are the basics for attacking somebody's shield as Falco:

LOW dair shine
Medium to low nair shine (i prefer to SH nair FF but in a way that the nair comes out as i'm FFing due to nair startup)

After your get the aerial -> shine on their shield, shinegrabs beat practically everything at low levels. IDK how they shape up vs buffered rolls, but frame perfect dubshine beats almost every roll in the game, so dubshine grab is nice.

Othe rmixups include shine fadeaway nair or waveshining their shield for extra style but way more risk.

WBallz pressure isn't actually worth learning because it gives you like... 1 more frame to react to rolls, which isn't really useful in the long run.

Laser grab on shield is great, as mentioned earlier.


As it applies to Sheik, I've found the nair shinegrab to be such an amazing option against Sheik personally. It just comes down to burning the safe nair into muscle memory and then thinking "okay, well they're in shield, so I have to change my inputs slightly."

waveshining is pretty unsafe, very shieldgrabbable

if you do late aerials they can be grabbed before the aerial comes out and good players will start doing this (creating a mixup, which is hypehypehype)

only Fox's frame perfect double shine grab beats buffered roll, Falco's does not, roll is broken ;_;

but if they roll through you it's pretty easy to react to and if they roll away they're closer to the edge and you can just laser and hold your stage positioning

also what out because nair can be CC'd if sheik is under 40% or something

 

[FE_Hector]

waveshining is pretty unsafe, very shieldgrabbable

if you do late aerials they can be grabbed before the aerial comes out and good players will start doing this (creating a mixup, which is hypehypehype)

only Fox's frame perfect double shine grab beats buffered roll, Falco's does not, roll is broken ;_;

but if they roll through you it's pretty easy to react to and if they roll away they're closer to the edge and you can just laser and hold your stage positioning

also what out because nair can be CC'd if sheik is under 40% or something

The waveshing thing was mentioned only for swag. Pretty sure I mentioned it's unsafe.

Yeah, mixups with late aerials are fun.

Falco's frame perfect unstaled dubshines DO beat all rolls that aren't invincible on F3 (such as Jiggs)

No idea what that last part means.

 

[SSS]

The waveshing thing was mentioned only for swag. Pretty sure I mentioned it's unsafe.

Yeah, mixups with late aerials are fun.

Falco's frame perfect unstaled dubshines DO beat all rolls that aren't invincible on F3 (such as Jiggs)

No idea what that last part means.

idk what i mean by what out ROFL. idk what i was trying to say but my brain clearly broke. i probably meant something like how nair shinegrab isn't perfect because if they decide to CC instead of shield you'll get grabbed after nair.

i think falco's doubleshine catches roll if it's unstale. if it's stale even once, it won't. i think.

 

[SSS]

Ok fam I wrote these and they're probably a good start, kinda long but #worth

Shield Pressure 1:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rFqirvF0d4t1Jb1nBUOdNPOj6FpKRrXexf9sbjea8zQ/edit?usp=sharing

Shield Pressure 2:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OhfuuNcPz0MZ-TVDW-0ReBngLDoueq7QTaTW74VlSiI/edit?usp=sharing

 

[FE_Hector]

idk what i mean by what out ROFL. idk what i was trying to say but my brain clearly broke. i probably meant something like how nair shinegrab isn't perfect because if they decide to CC instead of shield you'll get grabbed after nair.

i think falco's doubleshine catches roll if it's unstale. if it's stale even once, it won't. i think.

Most of the use for nair shinegrab is assuming they're already in shield.

 

[N337]

FaIco Vs. Fox Sheild Pressure:
I think that falco could get a kill off a shine grab, but at low % I think against fox it would be much better to just try and get the shine. Using aerials(Dair, Nair, or even Bair.) could be used for roll reads based off reactions, but I think it's too risky as there is a higher chance of you missing the L-cancel and lag into a punish by fox.

 

[Frenzy231199]

Ok fam I wrote these and they're probably a good start, kinda long but #worth

Shield Pressure 1:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rFqirvF0d4t1Jb1nBUOdNPOj6FpKRrXexf9sbjea8zQ/edit?usp=sharing

Shield Pressure 2:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OhfuuNcPz0MZ-TVDW-0ReBngLDoueq7QTaTW74VlSiI/edit?usp=sharing

Great reads, the table makes it quite easy to identify what beats what. In your opinion is Shine-Laser pressure any good? I've seen PPMD use it a bit to cover rolls and it seems decent.

 

[SSS]

Most of the use for nair shinegrab is assuming they're already in shield.

then why nair if they're in shield, why not deep laser shine?

FaIco Vs. Fox Sheild Pressure:
I think that falco could get a kill off a shine grab, but at low % I think against fox it would be much better to just try and get the shine. Using aerials(Dair, Nair, or even Bair.) could be used for roll reads based off reactions, but I think it's too risky as there is a higher chance of you missing the L-cancel and lag into a punish by fox.

Honestly the chance of you missing an L-cancel shouldn't even be considered at higher levels of play

Great reads, the table makes it quite easy to identify what beats what. In your opinion is Shine-Laser pressure any good? I've seen PPMD use it a bit to cover rolls and it seems decent.

it can cover roll kinda, but honestly laser does so little shieldstun that you're very vulnerable. also remember that it takes 13 frames from when you press B for the laser to come out, and after adding your short hop and some falling frames to make sure the laser doesn't just go above their head, you're looking at over 20 frames before you get a laser out; definitely reactable. laser is more used if they roll away and you didn't read it, you can maintain some sort of pressure by reacting and lasering to keep pushing them to the corner.

 

[FE_Hector]

then why nair if they're in shield, why not deep laser shine?

I don't like lasering in too close to somebody, it's just preference.