Falco should be decloned, not recloned

[Stormfury12]

Idk about anyone else but im a little frustrated with what they did to Falco in PM. I understand that they tried to make him like they did in Melee, but hes just too similar to Fox IMO. They got rid of a lot of his unique animations and such and it just bugs me. In Melee he was similar to Fox due to time constraints and because Sakurai wanted to add more characters at the last second, so he cloned fox and adjust some of the codes and made Falco. When he had more time in Brawl he decloned him, but PM turned him back into .....well...."Bird Fox". I love Melee and nothing against it or its playters but Project M is its own game and they did amazing things with Ganondorf, so why not Falco? Anyone else think he should be decloned some more?

 

[Lizalfos]

Play Fox then transition to playing Falco, then tell me what you could do with Fox that Falco can't. Consider how you play them differently in general.

I don't call Roy ph1r3 Marth.

 

[JosekiTheGreat]

While it's true that aesthetically Fox and Falco are identical in a lot of ways, they have completely opposite play-styles. Looking at the properties of their moves side by side, its really clear that they are completely different characters in just about every way.

 

[Giygacoal]

Idk about anyone else but im a little frustrated with what they did to Falco in PM. I understand that they tried to make him like they did in Melee, but hes just too similar to Fox IMO. They got rid of a lot of his unique animations and such and it just bugs me. In Melee he was similar to Fox due to time constraints and because Sakurai wanted to add more characters at the last second, so he cloned fox and adjust some of the codes and made Falco. When he had more time in Brawl he decloned him, but PM turned him back into .....well...."Bird Fox". I love Melee and nothing against it or its playters but Project M is its own game and they did amazing things with Ganondorf, so why not Falco? Anyone else think he should be decloned some more?

1. Most of the animations may be the same, but his Melee playstyle is actually very different from Fox's.
2. Falco's Melee playstyle is particularly well-regarded/iconic. Ganondorf, however, wasn't always a solid character.

 

[Stormfury12]

Nothing against his play-style really, it was mainly just stuff like animations and such.

 

[Kati]

lol

attacking with feathers instead of boots, just because someone else happens to attack with boots, is silly.

 

[Alm5252]

I downloaded a PSA that put Falco's Brawl animations back and adjusted the hitboxes, speed, and etc. It plays great and I definitely prefer it. Ofcourse his Melee shine is still there, but I enjoy that too. Project M should do that too, he doesn't feel or play any different, but he's just different looking and "decloned".

 

[Stormfury12]

I downloaded a PSA that put Falco's Brawl animations back and adjusted the hitboxes, speed, and etc. It plays great and I definitely prefer it. Ofcourse his Melee shine is still there, but I enjoy that too. Project M should do that too, he doesn't feel or play any different, but he's just different looking and "decloned".

Thats awesome! Thats more or less what I was getting at. He doesnt play different but the animations and such look different so he feels more unique.

 

[Comet7]

well yeah they're visually similar but then you think "oh god up smash sucks" and a whole bunch of other things and then you play falco correctly and realize that he won't look like fox at all.

edit: blue lasers are pretty

 

[Giygacoal]

Since I'm an animation nut I get what you mean, but Melee-esque Falco is just one of those things we shouldn't be bothered by. At least he has his Brawl jab animation and the taunts.

 

[Windstar120025]

i just feel that PM should try to tinker abit more with his Brawl changes and make them work for him insteaad of repeating the same stuff he did in melee. His shine in brawl was fun as sh*t and i would love to see it act the same as it did then but with the same damage and knockback, i dont care aout them making him better or worse its just he and fox need a change inorder to start looking for that new balanced meta they are looking for.
Personally id love to see them change falco fundementaly and give him really good recovery why tinkering with his tools, restore his brawl shine but leave the melee launch it creates as well as the shine jump (yes give him plenty of range on that shine XD), make his side- b more like a false glide instead of a dash(i men he is a bird, give him more recovery while your at it ), leave the laser (its annoying but is fine really), MAKE IT FLASHY (give him a nice little flashy twirl when he does it not only that alittle more umph to its distance) MAKE HIME FUN MAKE HIM STUPID I DONT CARE JUST MAKE HIM SOMETHING NEW!

 

[pkblaze]

Stop. Learn to play a fighting game, preferably melee or PM, but Street Fighter, Marvel or other traditional fighters are acceptable. Most importantly, develop an understanding for competitive game design.

After that, you can come back and question the design choices of a game constructed with primarily the competitive scene in mind. You can also make a much more qualified judgement on clones with this new mindset/knowledge.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Idk about anyone else but im a little frustrated with what they did to Falco in PM. I understand that they tried to make him like they did in Melee, but hes just too similar to Fox IMO. They got rid of a lot of his unique animations and such and it just bugs me. In Melee he was similar to Fox due to time constraints and because Sakurai wanted to add more characters at the last second, so he cloned fox and adjust some of the codes and made Falco. When he had more time in Brawl he decloned him, but PM turned him back into .....well...."Bird Fox". I love Melee and nothing against it or its playters but Project M is its own game and they did amazing things with Ganondorf, so why not Falco? Anyone else think he should be decloned some more?

So you don't like Falco, cool. Get the hell off my character. *****

 

[reportingsfnoobs]

I main Falco, and I personally like the way he performs his moves. If the PMDT can find a way to change his attack animations, but keep it similar, I'm all for it. FYI, I'm not talking about his Brawl animations being transferred. His f-smash animation in Brawl looks absolutely garbage, and some of his other moves, too.

I highly doubt the PMDT is ever going to change the animations for his moveset, though, and I'm totally happy with it.

 

[Stormfury12]

Ummm I never said I disliked falco. I freaking love him. I was just saying that different animations, same play style would be great. I'm not hating on falco at all and at the end of the day ill still play him. It's just the animation thing that bugs me. Idk why everyone's getting so mad about it. I'm not attacking him or making him sound like less of a character at all. And yeah I do play fighting games, they're pretty much the bulk of what I play.

 

[Boomhound]

Ummm I never said I disliked falco. I freaking love him. I was just saying that different animations, same play style would be great. I'm not hating on falco at all and at the end of the day ill still play him. It's just the animation thing that bugs me. Idk why everyone's getting so mad about it. I'm not attacking him or making him sound like less of a character at all. And yeah I do play fighting games, they're pretty much the bulk of what I play.

Hah I don't know why but these posts suggesting changes to characters (even on a solely aesthetic level) annoy me too.
I guess I'm just really happy with how things are, and these posts sound a bit greedy to me.

Of course I'm not going to say you're wrong or flame anyone.
I think the PMBR are conscious of how invested and content the majority of players are in melee veteran characters.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Different animations would alter hitboxes. The only one I can think of that would be workable with the same kind of impact, frame speed and such would be his Brawl FSmash if you even wanted to go that route but I like the leg drop kick.

Really I like his Melee animations more regardless of if they match Fox's. Sure they look the same but in combat they flow differently enough that I don't see him as "bird fox" at all.

 

[SuperMii3D]

I dont much about the cloning process or much of the technical terms, I can tell you that Im a lot better than Fox than I am with Falco. There are differences, but maybe you dont see them the way the rest of us, but they really are there.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Ummm I never said I disliked falco. I freaking love him. I was just saying that different animations, same play style would be great. I'm not hating on falco at all and at the end of the day ill still play him. It's just the animation thing that bugs me. Idk why everyone's getting so mad about it. I'm not attacking him or making him sound like less of a character at all. And yeah I do play fighting games, they're pretty much the bulk of what I play.

b/c this is Falco
Always been this way and he will never change
You want a new Falco
Play brawl. New animations = new hitboxes and no one wants a dramatic change to a top tier melee veteran

 

[WinterShorts]

No, Falco is MUCH different from Fox.

Falco's lasers give something completley different from Fox's. Also, some Nairs and some Dairs, with one being better than the other, lead to different combos and playstyles. Both use their shine, yes, but Fox's shine can shine again and spike, while Falco's sets up a basic combo (pillaring, anyone?). Fox uses his Nair a lot, while whenever I played a good Falco, I've barely seen his Nair once per game. With all these playstyles in mind, this makes Falco overall mch easier to handle than Fox, constantly using lasers to provide an approach option.

I'll agree that Ganondorf's changes was a bold move by PM, but Ganondorf, a dark, evil wizard, I personally, and lots of others, think that he shouldn't be related to Captain Falcon, a high energy racer that wants you to show your moves (don't take that the wrong way fellas). At least some changes had to be done.

 

[Phans]

Firstly, I'd like to say that I'm with you on almost all points. I personally found Fox and Falco worlds better handled in Brawl than they ever were in Melee or PM, though PM is vastly superior to Brawl in terms of overarching gameplay and so forth.
Please do not condescend; I know what I'm talking about. Fox was my second in Melee, and I now main Falco in PM.
To potential dogpilers, I do not have enough time to defend my preferences, so please do not respond to this half of the post. I'm not here to argue; I'm just here to support OP.

Secondly, this:

His shine in brawl was fun as sh*t and i would love to see it act the same as it did then but with the same damage and knockback...

As much as I'd like it, that's not ever going to happen.

Ever.

Do you know how PM was born? If I recall correctly, the great creator, whoever he is, hated Falco's brawl shine so much that he modded it, and things then escalated from there.

 

[FriendGuy]

I love everything about Falco, don't ever change, bb <3

 

[Magellan]

The problem you are facing is that other people do not want Falco changed (like myself). As far as PM goes, Falco will never be changed unless the majority of players wants him changed. If you want Falco changed, you will have to go with another mod. You might have trouble transferring your Falco over to PM, though as it is the popular mod to play.

P.S. If somebody ever changes his shine, I WILL FIND YOU.

 

[Thor]

The problem you are facing is that other people do not want Falco changed (like myself). As far as PM goes, Falco will never be changed unless the majority of players wants him changed. If you want Falco changed, you will have to go with another mod. You might have trouble transferring your Falco over to PM, though as it is the popular mod to play.

P.S. If somebody ever changes his shine, I WILL FIND YOU.

Now I want them to buff his shine's damage output to see if you start stalking this person.

i just feel that PM should try to tinker abit more with his Brawl changes and make them work for him insteaad of repeating the same stuff he did in melee. His shine in brawl was fun as sh*t and i would love to see it act the same as it did then but with the same damage and knockback, i dont care aout them making him better or worse its just he and fox need a change inorder to start looking for that new balanced meta they are looking for.
Personally id love to see them change falco fundementaly and give him really good recovery why tinkering with his tools, restore his brawl shine but leave the melee launch it creates as well as the shine jump (yes give him plenty of range on that shine XD), make his side- b more like a false glide instead of a dash(i men he is a bird, give him more recovery while your at it ), leave the laser (its annoying but is fine really), MAKE IT FLASHY (give him a nice little flashy twirl when he does it not only that alittle more umph to its distance) MAKE HIME FUN MAKE HIM STUPID I DONT CARE JUST MAKE HIM SOMETHING NEW!

Have you heard of Brawl Minus? http://brawlminus.net/forums/

I think you'll like what they've done with Falco. It's not exactly as you've described, but, well... among other things he has 4 jumps and his firebird actually takes him somewhere.

That said, there's no L-cancelling (they just eradicated most landing lag in the code itself, instead of making it moderate and then adding an arbitrary cancel) and you can't wavedash (unless you play Fox), but if you want awesome flying Falco, well, there ya go!

b/c this is Falco
Always been this way and he will never change
You want a new Falco
Play brawl. New animations = new hitboxes and no one wants a dramatic change to a top tier melee veteran

Actually, for quite some time, a lot of Ganondorf mains wanted some pretty dramatic changes to Falco, heh. The PM devs helped 'Dorf out though, so I don't think they care as much anymore.

while whenever I played a good Falco, I've barely seen his Nair once per game.

Falco's nair is amazing what the heck are you talking about??? It has good range in front of him (And I think dair has less range late now so nair's advantage is even more relevant) and when dair is minus on hit in the air you can nair them instead (if you think reverse bair won't hit and you don't want to fair, since fair is really situational).

The Falco can't be THAT good [or else are good but don't use Falco's moveset to the fullest], as here PPMD and M2K are clearly using a lot of nairs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XgJuRZ3dfI

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think that the idea that Falco CANNOT be changed shouldn't be supported but rather, how about changes that blend with his current dynamic? Even stuff like purely cosmetic things like animations go a long way, I wouldn't mind seeing it so long as he was functionally identical or the same.

It's just the ideas for decloning him generally revolve around changing the Down-B which is the crux of some of his best shield pressure options (pillaring, anything out of shine, waveshine) and that ****s the core gameplay IMO. Stuff like maybe making Fair have a different animation, or Uair working the same but with a more swag looking animation, etc.

As of right now I love him and his playstyle but if they want to make him different I suggest doing it in ways that won't hamper or alter his playstyle too greatly.

 

[pkblaze]

I love his upthrow when the SDI isn't free. Let's declone the SDI of the lasers on his upthrow.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

They should give Falco a dark blue or Fox a red shine, so every spacie has his unique shine color/look. I agree that the feathers instead of boots approach of Brawl has kind of silly, I guess some animations could be changed for visual decloning but it would be difficult to not affect hitboxes etc. at the same time.

 

[WinterShorts]

Now I want them to buff his shine's damage output to see if you start stalking this person.



Have you heard of Brawl Minus? http://brawlminus.net/forums/

I think you'll like what they've done with Falco. It's not exactly as you've described, but, well... among other things he has 4 jumps and his firebird actually takes him somewhere.

That said, there's no L-cancelling (they just eradicated most landing lag in the code itself, instead of making it moderate and then adding an arbitrary cancel) and you can't wavedash (unless you play Fox), but if you want awesome flying Falco, well, there ya go!



Actually, for quite some time, a lot of Ganondorf mains wanted some pretty dramatic changes to Falco, heh. The PM devs helped 'Dorf out though, so I don't think they care as much anymore.



Falco's nair is amazing what the heck are you talking about??? It has good range in front of him (And I think dair has less range late now so nair's advantage is even more relevant) and when dair is minus on hit in the air you can nair them instead (if you think reverse bair won't hit and you don't want to fair, since fair is really situational).

The Falco can't be THAT good [or else are good but don't use Falco's moveset to the fullest], as here PPMD and M2K are clearly using a lot of nairs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XgJuRZ3dfI

That will be information I'll like for my Falco. Thank you.

 

[Magellan]

Directional shine knockback would be interesting. You would need super fast fingers to pull it off, though. You could pillar AND shine spike.

From playing other games I have learned to fear any buffs as well as nerfs. Because buffs mean the majority of players will be screaming "broken" in a few months. The obvious decision in any game where one style is considered too powerful is to nerf it until it is useless.

 

[Thor]

They should give Falco a dark blue or Fox a red shine, so every spacie has his unique shine color/look. I agree that the feathers instead of boots approach of Brawl has kind of silly, I guess some animations could be changed for visual decloning but it would be difficult to not affect hitboxes etc. at the same time.

Although it would very much change one of his moves (and arguably be a solid buff), I would love it if they replace his current fair with the Brawl nair. It would be weaker in terms of raw damage (12% < 25% or whatever) but I personally think far more useful (since Brawl nair was actually super good for a lot of stuff and linked decently). Fair -> shine -> stuff would then be a nice air-to-ground-to-air transition, especially against floaties. But Falco doesn't need buffs so this seems unlikely [even though it would also be a step to satisfy many people's request for declining them].

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Although it would very much change one of his moves (and arguably be a solid buff), I would love it if they replace his current fair with the Brawl nair. It would be weaker in terms of raw damage (12% < 25% or whatever) but I personally think far more useful (since Brawl nair was actually super good for a lot of stuff and linked decently). Fair -> shine -> stuff would then be a nice air-to-ground-to-air transition, especially against floaties. But Falco doesn't need buffs so this seems unlikely [even though it would also be a step to satisfy many people's request for declining them].

That seems reasonable in my opinion. I don't think that it will be necessarily a buff, Falco could also be given a weaker version of his Brawl nair as fair, like MK got a weaker version of his Brawl dair as 3.5 dair, which is considered a nerf.
There would also be disadvantages, but I think the "recloning" annoys many players, especially from a Brawl or Smash 4 background. And the PMDT did a great job with Falcon/Ganondorf decloning, it is honsetly Falco being a top tier that raises the resistance against it.

 

[7upjawa]

Falco is perfect the way he is.

 

[Lime Cultivist]

His moves are similar to Foxs' but he plays completely different. I think he's fine where he is.

 

[StarshipGroove]

PMDT could show off a proof of conceptual new Falco on youtube, and then analyze the feedback. The question should be: "how many new players could we gain from a revamped Falco?"
A new Falco build should keep his essential moves and properties such as physics, shine, dair, Melee roundhouse kick, etc. but change several moves to make him even flashier and more appealing to people. Just like what has been done to Ganondorf.

 

[Magellan]

I guess I haven't been playing him long enough to really care. I just really need Falco to keep his Dair, shine physics, lasers, and his entire playstyle. I don't think I need to worry about it. Falco will not be changed. It just won't happen. You should try other mods.