fair vs neutral b

[Rlagkrud]

I was looking into edgeguarding firefoxing foxes/falcos offstage and wondered which is the better option.
Looking at frame data, it looks like neutral b is just 1 frame slower than fair, (4 vs 5) so it's negligible in that regard.
A big advantage of neutral b is that it has no vertical hit hitbox, guaranteeing you'll hit the fox away from the stage instead of straight up.
My conclusion is neutral b should always be used over fair when edguarding off stage versus an up-bing spacy.
To clarify, I'm talking jump off stage, double jump fair/neutral b, not on stage.

Is this right, or am I missing some data here?

 

[BlueX]

I guess i could be wrong...

Think about what option you are going to use in this case, excellent decision making is one of Marths biggest factors. Neutral B may sound like a good idea when off the stage but if Fox is at a high percentage then F-air may kill as the knockback of may be powerful depending of the percentage of Fox and a non-charged neutral b can be pretty week. You won't really have a lot of time to charge Neutral B in the air since you will be failing so F-air in this case will be a better option since you don't need to charge and can cover a lot. You can jump after Neutral B in the air but this may not be the case depending on what happens, plus you might miss if you do use neural b so again using f-air can cover more and can possibly be a guaranteed hit.

So in my opinion, i think that neutral b should not be used everytime and f-air is likely to be better option... but it can depend on what you do. It's you decision on how you use them in the air but situational when edgeguarding the edge.

 

[Rlagkrud]

You talked a lot about on stage neutral b (charging and etc). That's not what I'm talking about at all.
I'm talking about a purely off stage perspective. Double jump fair or neutral b.

If B is an objectively better option off stage, there's no reason to ever use fair over it.

My question: is neutral B an objectively better off-stage edgeguarding tool vs a Up-B Spacy due to it's guaranteed hit angle (as opposed to fair's tipper giving the spacy a second chance), while only being 1 frame slower (5 vs 4), than fair.

 

[BlueX]

You talked a lot about on stage neutral b (charging and etc). That's not what I'm talking about at all.
I'm talking about a purely off stage perspective. Double jump fair or neutral b.

If B is an objectively better option off stage, there's no reason to ever use fair over it.

My question: is neutral B an objectively better off-stage edgeguarding tool vs a Up-B Spacy due to it's guaranteed hit angle (as opposed to fair's tipper giving the spacy a second chance), while only being 1 frame slower (5 vs 4), than fair.

I guess i'll remove the ground things.

F-air is much better. It's much quicker and efficient. You might not survive after using Neutral B if you don't get a jump and using it can be very risky. Fox might not always get a second chance as if you use f-air then Fox might fall directly to his death if he was close to the blastzones and even then if he was able to get a another chance, he might still die anyway, especially Falco since of how bad his recovery is. You can leave Fox in a poor state with f-air if you were below the stage and is one of the best options on the air to edgeguard him. A weak f-air can simply kill him if he is a long distance away from the edge. (examples used from SSBM Tutorials: How to edgeguard spacies with Marth) I don't think there is really much difference if neutral b was 1 frame slower.

Neutral B is poor because if you were to use it in the air then you would be still falling after using it making your chances to recover to be very poor, while f-air is quick and does not have much lag which means you can still recover unlike neutral b. It is not always safe to use and could possibly miss a hit with it which can lead to a stock loss since you will have trouble recovering.

Edited my previous post. I am sorry if i went into too much detail on ground attacks. I think that f-air is much better and i personally think that neutral b might be a poor option. I hope i did not sound like a douche.

 

[A_Reverie]

Shield Breaker can be used after a tipper F-air against fast fallers when they DI in such a way that D-air, Reverse Up-B, or another F-air may not connect. At high percents it will outright kill them.

Regarding edge guards vs. Fox and Falco's Up-B, you can go for a center hit F-air to close out the stock. With enough practice you should be able to get it every time. If they're too far away to connect with center hit F-air, then you should be able to just grab the ledge and roll up, or drop and do rising B-air if you think they may make it back (Falco usually won't.) The most common times you'll use these options are if you Counter their attempt to Up-B through you and they get sent down and away from the ledge. If they DI differently and end up down and close to the stage, you should grab the ledge and then drop and do a rising F-air, hitting them with the center or even the reverse weak-hit if they're positioned a certain way.

In all of these cases, F-air outclasses Shield Breaker simply because Shield Breaker takes longer to act out of (44 frames non-interruptible vs. 33 frames, IASA on 30 for F-air) and it does some weird things to your aerial momentum. With F-air, you'll spend less time falling while maintaining aerial control so that you can precisely swat space animals out of their smoldering stupid recoveries.

 

[Tablesalt]

Well, it matters on percent. If the Fox is I believe 60% with no DI (I can't remember this for sure) and you tip the fair, you can get a dair off of it which is probably Marth's most guaranteed kill move that isn't a tipper. If it's anything below 60% or anything above 80% you should get a neutral B in.

 

[Tablesalt]

Whoops, I just realized the "not on stage." I'll leave what I put up still since that is also important. You should go for the fair since it gimps and you have more of a chance to survive. It depends on position too, if Fox is recovering at about the center of the ground of dreamland and he is pretty far you should go for the fair. If he is below dreamland and close to the wall, you should bair so he gets pineappled. If he is above the ledge and uses a slight angle to go straight to the ledge, you can do this cool reverse neutral b thing that doesn't shift your momentum off after a ledge grab. The best way to really study this is to watch this 739 Mew2king Edgeguards (with Marth). That is how I learned how to edge guard. You can also try with save states in 20XX.

 

[Shiftyy]

Fair is far superior. Much faster (Neutral B does not come out on frame 5, not sure where you got that from. Neutral B comes out on frame 16), more reliable.

I suppose it would depend on the situation in which you're using it. I've been trying to think of when it would be optimal to use Neutral B off stage. There are, however, very few good examples on video that I've come across.

One of which is this particular edge guard in Mew2king's edge guard video: https://youtu.be/s63pPeyWasw?t=801

 

[Tablesalt]

Fair is far superior. Much faster (Neutral B does not come out on frame 5, not sure where you got that from. Neutral B comes out on frame 16), more reliable.

I suppose it would depend on the situation in which you're using it. I've been trying to think of when it would be optimal to use Neutral B off stage. There are, however, very few good examples on video that I've come across.

One of which is this particular edge guard in Mew2king's edge guard video: https://youtu.be/s63pPeyWasw?t=801

I gave that link in the last post

 

[Shiftyy]

I gave that link in the last post

Yeah, I saw that. I was using the time stamp for an example. You linked the video as a whole (which is an awesome video to watch btw).