Introduction
In my journey through competitive Melee, I’ve come across a unique and often overlooked aspect of gameplay: idle animations and their cycles, especially in crouch positions. This realization led me to experiment with different characters and analyze how these subtle movements affect the dynamics of grabs and other interactions. While many players are well-versed in frame data, hitboxes, and movement techniques, the role of idle animations and their influence on these interactions often remains unexplored. What started as simple curiosity soon revealed the potential of these animations to shift competitive strategies—particularly those that revolve around grab interactions.
Discovering the Role of Idle Animations
During my practice sessions with Marth, I noticed that characters standing idle could sometimes evade grabs at close range, seemingly due to shifts in their hurtbox positions. Testing this with Falco, I found that Marth’s grab would occasionally miss, only to connect moments later when Falco’s idle animation adjusted his hand position. This observation laid a foundational, subconscious understanding for myself.
A friend at one of my local tournaments once recommended using Marth’s dash grab on a crouching Jigglypuff, as it reaches lower than his standing grab and can grab a crouching Puff. I applied this technique immediately in the approaching bracket set and saw it work, which reinforced my interest in exploring when and why these grabs land successfully. In a later tournament, I played against a Puff again, only to find out when I attempted the dash grab again in the same scenario, it failed to go through. This inconsistency made me even more curious, as it highlighted something deeper at play beyond positioning and timing. It heavily implied that there was something more I was missing.
During an archived match I rewatched against a Puff player (where the dash grab failed), I noted how I attempted a stationary standing grab on a crouching Jigglypuff, being as close as to Puff as I could, as any further actions such as walking into her would push Puff's model. I was surprised to see the grab connect, even though standing grabs under these circumstances should be out of range. After closely analyzing the VoD, I confirmed that Puff was not performing any move or movement that would extend her hurtbox. This pointed to the role of her idle animation in crouch, which subtly adjusts her hurtbox and creates an opening for my grab. This piqued my curiosity, leading myself to perform a deeper analysis and testing.
Analyzing Marth’s Grab Mechanics
Marth's standing grab and dash grab have 3 unique hitboxes during their respective animations, both out for 2 frames. Through testing, I found that Marth’s standing grab has a lower hitbox on his body, which can connect with a crouching Jigglypuff more consistently. However, Marth’s dash grab generally reaches lower overall, creating another opportunity for connection, depending on Jigglypuff’s crouch state at the moment. For puff, I discovered that she seems to have 3 main positions in her crouch. When Marth is closest to Puff, and she squishes herself fully into the ground, she notably can avoid the grab hitbox, otherwise, Marth's standing grab consistently lands in this situation.
Crouch animations are incredibly important in the metagame (including to avoid hitboxes from grabs and attacks, to crouch cancel, etc.). For example, Mr. Game & Watch’s crouch cycle alternates every 30 frames, affecting his hurtbox’s vulnerability. For 30 frames, G&W is at the lowest part of his crouch into the ground, and then for 30 frames, he is up. Meanwhile, Jigglypuff’s crouch appears to have a less predictable animation, potentially being random, unlike G&W's fixed cycle, making Puff harder to grab consistently. These variations demonstrate how crouch animations can impact the success of grab attempts, depending on timing and position.
Potential for New Strategies
For Marth mains facing crouch-heavy opponents like Puff, understanding idle animations provides insight into timing grabs more effectively. When crouching becomes a common counter to grabs, precise knowledge of animation cycles can give players an edge, potentially opening new strategies for neutral or punish game.
Future Updates and Community Contributions
In upcoming posts, I’ll be sharing videos documenting hitbox interactions and pictures/gifs to illustrate these concepts in action. This thread will also feature updates as I continue testing other characters and scenarios, shedding more light on these subtle hitbox and hurtbox mechanics. I will also build upon the information above where I detailed specifics, such as with Puff, Game & Watch, etc.
It's important to emphasize that this topic is not limited to specific characters like Marth, Puff or Game & Watch, but rather, something that should be discussed and further researched deeper with various characters, based on factors like frame data, hitboxes, animations, hurtboxes, and other statistics that influence interactions between characters.
For a more detailed breakdown and additional examples, check out this Google Doc, which I’ll be updating as I continue to explore these mechanics.
Understanding idle animations and their effects on hurtboxes can add depth to competitive play, reshaping how we approach matchups, especially those involving heavy crouch usage. By delving into these often-overlooked aspects, we can unlock new strategies that challenge conventional approaches and potentially influence the future meta of Melee.
Idle animations are just one small part of Melee's intricate mechanics. Further analysis of platform interactions, or other characters’ idle states, could unlock even more ways to refine strategy and approach different matchups with fresh perspectives.
I encourage anyone interested to share their observations or test findings. Let’s see if we can uncover more interactions together.
Broader Applications and Further Analysis
These concepts could further explain nuances such as within Kodorin's YouTube video on "EASY TRICKS to INVALIDATE Falco Lasers | The Daily KodoTips #9", where he discusses the greater ease of powershielding Falco lasers in different scenarios, such as when lasers are to hit Marth from behind and/or when moving away from approaching Falco lasers, or even powershielding when crouching and not facing approaching lasers, as it may serve to give more room for error, or a buffer so to speak. Perhaps the variability of idle animations is more common from the front of a character like Marth than the backside, and the same may be justifiable for other characters.
Beyond just ground interactions, these animation nuances might extend to platform play, especially on stages with variable platform heights, like Fountain of Dreams. Future analysis could reveal how certain grabs function across different characters and situations, impacting the meta even further.
This could also influence what attacks miss or hit based on the hurtbox of a character on platforms, with specific parts of their idle animation playing out, affecting what attacks can actually cover them on a platform, when an opposing character is below them. This concept could also apply similarly to other situations outside of platforms, such as the slant edges of the Yoshi's Story stage, or when a character on the stage tries to grab an opposing character who is on Randall the cloud.
In my journey through competitive Melee, I’ve come across a unique and often overlooked aspect of gameplay: idle animations and their cycles, especially in crouch positions. This realization led me to experiment with different characters and analyze how these subtle movements affect the dynamics of grabs and other interactions. While many players are well-versed in frame data, hitboxes, and movement techniques, the role of idle animations and their influence on these interactions often remains unexplored. What started as simple curiosity soon revealed the potential of these animations to shift competitive strategies—particularly those that revolve around grab interactions.
Discovering the Role of Idle Animations
During my practice sessions with Marth, I noticed that characters standing idle could sometimes evade grabs at close range, seemingly due to shifts in their hurtbox positions. Testing this with Falco, I found that Marth’s grab would occasionally miss, only to connect moments later when Falco’s idle animation adjusted his hand position. This observation laid a foundational, subconscious understanding for myself.
A friend at one of my local tournaments once recommended using Marth’s dash grab on a crouching Jigglypuff, as it reaches lower than his standing grab and can grab a crouching Puff. I applied this technique immediately in the approaching bracket set and saw it work, which reinforced my interest in exploring when and why these grabs land successfully. In a later tournament, I played against a Puff again, only to find out when I attempted the dash grab again in the same scenario, it failed to go through. This inconsistency made me even more curious, as it highlighted something deeper at play beyond positioning and timing. It heavily implied that there was something more I was missing.
During an archived match I rewatched against a Puff player (where the dash grab failed), I noted how I attempted a stationary standing grab on a crouching Jigglypuff, being as close as to Puff as I could, as any further actions such as walking into her would push Puff's model. I was surprised to see the grab connect, even though standing grabs under these circumstances should be out of range. After closely analyzing the VoD, I confirmed that Puff was not performing any move or movement that would extend her hurtbox. This pointed to the role of her idle animation in crouch, which subtly adjusts her hurtbox and creates an opening for my grab. This piqued my curiosity, leading myself to perform a deeper analysis and testing.
Analyzing Marth’s Grab Mechanics
Marth's standing grab and dash grab have 3 unique hitboxes during their respective animations, both out for 2 frames. Through testing, I found that Marth’s standing grab has a lower hitbox on his body, which can connect with a crouching Jigglypuff more consistently. However, Marth’s dash grab generally reaches lower overall, creating another opportunity for connection, depending on Jigglypuff’s crouch state at the moment. For puff, I discovered that she seems to have 3 main positions in her crouch. When Marth is closest to Puff, and she squishes herself fully into the ground, she notably can avoid the grab hitbox, otherwise, Marth's standing grab consistently lands in this situation.
Crouch animations are incredibly important in the metagame (including to avoid hitboxes from grabs and attacks, to crouch cancel, etc.). For example, Mr. Game & Watch’s crouch cycle alternates every 30 frames, affecting his hurtbox’s vulnerability. For 30 frames, G&W is at the lowest part of his crouch into the ground, and then for 30 frames, he is up. Meanwhile, Jigglypuff’s crouch appears to have a less predictable animation, potentially being random, unlike G&W's fixed cycle, making Puff harder to grab consistently. These variations demonstrate how crouch animations can impact the success of grab attempts, depending on timing and position.
Potential for New Strategies
For Marth mains facing crouch-heavy opponents like Puff, understanding idle animations provides insight into timing grabs more effectively. When crouching becomes a common counter to grabs, precise knowledge of animation cycles can give players an edge, potentially opening new strategies for neutral or punish game.
Future Updates and Community Contributions
In upcoming posts, I’ll be sharing videos documenting hitbox interactions and pictures/gifs to illustrate these concepts in action. This thread will also feature updates as I continue testing other characters and scenarios, shedding more light on these subtle hitbox and hurtbox mechanics. I will also build upon the information above where I detailed specifics, such as with Puff, Game & Watch, etc.
It's important to emphasize that this topic is not limited to specific characters like Marth, Puff or Game & Watch, but rather, something that should be discussed and further researched deeper with various characters, based on factors like frame data, hitboxes, animations, hurtboxes, and other statistics that influence interactions between characters.
For a more detailed breakdown and additional examples, check out this Google Doc, which I’ll be updating as I continue to explore these mechanics.
Understanding idle animations and their effects on hurtboxes can add depth to competitive play, reshaping how we approach matchups, especially those involving heavy crouch usage. By delving into these often-overlooked aspects, we can unlock new strategies that challenge conventional approaches and potentially influence the future meta of Melee.
Idle animations are just one small part of Melee's intricate mechanics. Further analysis of platform interactions, or other characters’ idle states, could unlock even more ways to refine strategy and approach different matchups with fresh perspectives.
I encourage anyone interested to share their observations or test findings. Let’s see if we can uncover more interactions together.
Broader Applications and Further Analysis
These concepts could further explain nuances such as within Kodorin's YouTube video on "EASY TRICKS to INVALIDATE Falco Lasers | The Daily KodoTips #9", where he discusses the greater ease of powershielding Falco lasers in different scenarios, such as when lasers are to hit Marth from behind and/or when moving away from approaching Falco lasers, or even powershielding when crouching and not facing approaching lasers, as it may serve to give more room for error, or a buffer so to speak. Perhaps the variability of idle animations is more common from the front of a character like Marth than the backside, and the same may be justifiable for other characters.
Beyond just ground interactions, these animation nuances might extend to platform play, especially on stages with variable platform heights, like Fountain of Dreams. Future analysis could reveal how certain grabs function across different characters and situations, impacting the meta even further.
This could also influence what attacks miss or hit based on the hurtbox of a character on platforms, with specific parts of their idle animation playing out, affecting what attacks can actually cover them on a platform, when an opposing character is below them. This concept could also apply similarly to other situations outside of platforms, such as the slant edges of the Yoshi's Story stage, or when a character on the stage tries to grab an opposing character who is on Randall the cloud.
