Evolution of the metagame - come discuss!

[Slashtap]

I went to bed last night with a question on my mind evoking my curiosity... when was the last time SSB changed in some significant way? This is a very broad question so to direct responses toward what I'm trying to find out, here are some additional thoughts:

-Does competitive play look any different in 2013 than in 2012? If not, then how about 2012 vs. 2011, etc?
-When was the last time the game changed in such a way that you can actually notice the difference in match play?
-What caused that change? Perhaps a specific technique for one character was more thoroughly developed this year? Perhaps a new combo was innovated? Perhaps there are no more new combos, but a known combo or strategy that previously wasn't effective took on an effective role recently as is now seeing more use?
-Another way to approach the question: What were some things that changed how competitive SSB was played in 2013? 2012? 2011? 2010? (and so on until you identify major milestones)

 

[KnitePhox]

biggest milestone: pj64k in 2003

thank you!

 

[Combo Blaze]

****s just gonna get campier and campier

 

[asianaussie]

ness will make a comeback

 

[Slashtap]

=_= A little more detail please? For instance, one person gave me this answer:

"There's really not anything for 64 gameplay-wise. Tourney-wise, three people (Nintendude, Chain-ace, and Sensei) decided that they're going to ban Hyrule for Apex 2014. Hyrule has been a legal stage in 64 since the game started basically and it balances out the tier list. So now, there's 3 legal stages (Dreamland, Congo Jungle, and Peach's Castle).

The Melee analogy is this:

Hyrule banned = Pokemon Stadium Banned

Only legal stages: Yoshi's Story (Dreamland), Congo Jungle 64 (same), and Brinstar (Peach's Castle).

With Hyrule legal, Pikachu and Kirby are clearly better than the other 10 characters. With Hyrule banned, it's about 10x worse than Metaknight. So now 64 is becoming Pikachu dittos, Pika vs Kirby, and Kirby dittos."

I was wondering how else the game has changed, be it rules or gameplay, in recent times.

 

[weedwack]

Don't know why you're making a melee analogy to explain 64 in the 64 section.

Also wtf at people asking questions as if they're legitimately curious and then using it as an opportunity to complain.

 

[mixa]

the whole metagame changed when this happened:

[collapse=Tacna, Peru. 2011]

[/collapse]
we should have a shine appreciation thread.

still waiting for that shine-jab out of shield, TANK.

 

[clubbadubba]

There are really only 2 people in NA that can make a worthwhile comment on the "metagame" since they seem to be way ahead of the rest of us.

The most noticeable change recently has been character selection with a lot more pikachu's/kirby's being played over the past year.

 

[Yobolight]

Clubba, Is the metagame defined by the preeminent player or by the elite right below him?

I would say a match between say Kero vs Sensei is more indicative of the current metagame than Isai vs anyone. There is no consensus as to who is the basis for which to judge the metagame within the definition of "metagame".

I think it is fair to assume that their are 3 different fleshed-out Smash 64 metagames in existence today (the US, Peru, Japan) which cannot easily be compared due to the infrequency of cross-scene play as well as different game-versions/ rulesets.

I think in the US that smart defensive play is becoming more popular due to a spread of the play to win mentality, which is a product of an increase in console tournaments in the post-Genesis 2 world. The play to win mentality has emphasized the true differences in ability between the characters on the tier list in a way not previously as widely understood.

Hyrule's banning is a result of this on going tedency toward defensive play. Certain stage positions granted too much of an advantage to be considered healthy for the game in certain MUs. This problem in addition to a bunch of minor problems (game time, audience interest, stalling, etc..) and thus it was decided by the East Coast TOs to ban the stage.

I think we will be able to know more about the metagame once we see a large and diverse tournament (Apex 2014) be run on a Hyrule-banned ruleset and afterwards it may be possible to get a better grasp on where the metagame is going.

 

[Han Solo]

Don't know why you're making a melee analogy to explain 64 in the 64 section.

Also wtf at people asking questions as if they're legitimately curious and then using it as an opportunity to complain.

He was quoting me on a post I made on gamefaqs. I don't know why you assumed he was the one that wrote it lol

 

[KeroKeroppi]

"With Hyrule legal, Pikachu and Kirby are clearly better than the other 10 characters. With Hyrule banned, it's about 10x worse than Metaknight. So now 64 is becoming Pikachu dittos, Pika vs Kirby, and Kirby dittos."

lol

 

[Han Solo]

the whole metagame changed when this happened:

[collapse=Tacna, Peru. 2011]

[/collapse]
we should have a shine appreciation thread.

still waiting for that shine-jab out of shield, TANK.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_VwTV3zSUw&feature=c4-overview

 

[mixa]

^ Yeah, the tech skill of it is not what I was after. I meant in a match. Preferrably purposefuly used and not just for style points like how most shine-jabs are used.

 

[Mr Bushido]

Samus > Ness

Thank You.

 

[Han Solo]

^ Yeah, the tech skill of it is not what I was after. I meant in a match. Preferrably purposefuly used and not just for style points like how most shine-jabs are used.

There are only a handful of situations where shine oos is a good thing to do. The list for shinejaboos is much smaller. The only one I can think of is if someone is doing a running shield up to someone that is on the ground. They do a get up attack. Then Fox does shinejaboos to rack up enough damage to lead into an upsmash kill. Even then, you're probably going to mess up and get punished.

 

[Slashtap]

Don't know why you're making a melee analogy to explain 64 in the 64 section.

Also wtf at people asking questions as if they're legitimately curious and then using it as an opportunity to complain.

I am legitimately curious. I have zero knowledge about SSB, which is why I am asking the question that I am. Where do you see me complain about anything, other than that the first three posters did not post real answers?

 

[KnitePhox]

i posted a real answer wtf m8.

jaime boom and many others wouldn't be where they are, if here at all, if it weren't for pj64k; ask (almost) anyone. to the extent that it even effected console only players, i'd say.

 

[weedwack]

Didn't see the quotation marks, my bad. Thought you were all like, "how has the meta game changed?" and then answered your own question all rage like.

With dreamland as the primary competitive stage, pursuing your opponent aggressively becomes a more viable option. The small area of the stage and the three platforms enhance many characters ability to apply pressure to large areas and to move quickly from side to side, giving many matchups more dynamic spacing strategies.

I think we will see faster, more aggressive play in the future, albeit more gimp-heavy.

 

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

=_= A little more detail please? For instance, one person gave me this answer:

"There's really not anything for 64 gameplay-wise. Tourney-wise, three people (Nintendude, Chain-ace, and Sensei) decided that they're going to ban Hyrule for Apex 2014. Hyrule has been a legal stage in 64 since the game started basically and it balances out the tier list. So now, there's 3 legal stages (Dreamland, Congo Jungle, and Peach's Castle).

The Melee analogy is this:

Hyrule banned = Pokemon Stadium Banned

Only legal stages: Yoshi's Story (Dreamland), Congo Jungle 64 (same), and Brinstar (Peach's Castle).

With Hyrule legal, Pikachu and Kirby are clearly better than the other 10 characters. With Hyrule banned, it's about 10x worse than Metaknight. So now 64 is becoming Pikachu dittos, Pika vs Kirby, and Kirby dittos."

I was wondering how else the game has changed, be it rules or gameplay, in recent times.

10x worse than metaknight? is this a metagame discussion thread or a pro-hyrule propaganda thread? rofl

the melee analogy is more like hyrule banned = corneria banned. that's how far behind we were on it

 

[Slashtap]

i posted a real answer wtf m8.

jaime boom and many others wouldn't be where they are, if here at all, if it weren't for pj64k; ask (almost) anyone. to the extent that it even effected console only players, i'd say.

I'm interested in what the most recent noticeable changes to the game have been, not historical milestones.

 

[Combo Blaze]

-Another way to approach the question: What were some things that changed how competitive SSB was played in 2013? 2012? 2011? 2010? (and so on until you identify major milestones)

thx

 

[Slashtap]

So competitive gameplay generally looks the same in 2013 as in 2003?

 

[Combo Blaze]

biggest milestone

thank you!

and id say peru had some effect to our scene, especially with how an "unknown" community like theirs had players capable of going 1 on 1 with Isai.

 

[bloodpeach]

n the other 10 characters. With Hyrule banned, it's about 10x worse than Metaknight. So now 64 is becoming Pikachu dittos, Pika vs Kirby, and Kirby dittos."

There is no evidence for this. Pikachu and Kirby are probably HURT overall by the hyrule ban due to the removeal Pika's triangle stall and Kirby's ledge camp.

The focus on dreamland gives Falcon a better MU against pika overall, and Kirby's advantage over Falcon is significantly less on DL as well.

Fox is hurt by the removal of laser camping and tent camping and poor recovery in general, but still remains a top character in the game. Some people (though few Fox mains; they prefer to make excuses) still believe Fox is a better character than Kirby on DL, though I dont think anyone denies that it is much more technically difficult to play as Fox at that level than as Kirby.

 

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

So competitive gameplay generally looks the same in 2013 as in 2003?

the metagame has never had any drastic "ah ha!" moments where one big thing is learned and everyone starts using it. it's been a slow development over the course of many, many years where players have been gradually learning what to do in specific situations. the knowledge of what to do in each specific situation is basically what a player is composed of and what makes them good/bad, but because there's so many of these situations it'd be way too tedious to list them all out and/or determine which are more "ground-breaking" or "important" so imo this thread is pry pointless

 

[Slashtap]

There isn't a need to further dissect the original post about Hyrule. I shared that quote as an example of something that recently changed about the game (Hyrule being banned for an event). And that's what I'm still primarily interested in knowing: When was the last time the game changed in such a way that you can actually notice the difference in match play, whether that difference was recent, and what that difference was.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

soon as people switched from "Good" connection to "Exc" connection

 

[bloodpeach]

If you really want a 'big shift' I think you're most likely to find it in the US Yoshi meta. Yoshi play looks a lot different today than it did in 2006; the focus shifted from spaced smashes to heavy combos off of djc aerials. But even then, the new tools aren't really enough to drastically change any matchups, and most of us 2013 yoshi's are probably still worse than isai's 2006 yoshi. (i wasnt around in 06, so dont listen to me too much)

 

[Slashtap]

If you really want a 'big shift' I think you're most likely to find it in the US Yoshi meta. Yoshi play looks a lot different today than it did in 2006; the focus shifted from spaced smashes to heavy combos off of djc aerials. But even then, the new tools aren't really enough to drastically change any matchups, and most of us 2013 yoshi's are probably still worse than isai's 2006 yoshi. (i wasnt around in 06, so dont listen to me too much)

Yea those are the kind of things I want to learn about, what little things have been changing in the game lately. Do you have more examples like this?

 

[clubbadubba]

i remember peek posted one time "pivoting. changed. EVERYTHING." So I dunno if pivoting became more prevalent at some point in time or what. Would've been before my time if that were the case.

 

[Shears]

I would say unlocking item-switch was a monumental shift in the meta.

 

[Olikus]

I think the most changes was made by isai from he got the game until 2005. And most of us wasnt around at that time. So I guess after that, most things was more or less discovered. And from 2006 and on, the most focus was improving on the previous discoveries with new possibilities.

 

[Sensei]

grabs
edgeguarding
z cancel / ledge hogging
zero to death combos
shield dropping / pivoting
ledge cancels
teleporting
pausing
rules against pausing

the EVOLUTION of the MeTaGaMe

 

[The Star King]

People are WAY better now than they were in 2009 trust me.

We still have a very long way to go, too. If you think the general skill level has peaked, you're probably... not good. Quite frankly.

 

[Olikus]

People are WAY better now than they were in 2009 trust me.

We still have a very long way to go, too. If you think the general skill level has peaked, you're probably... not good. Quite frankly.

who said anything about general skill leves has peaked? We're discussing major changes in the game. The level is ofc much higher now than previous years. But I cant remember any dealbreaking stuff happening the last couple of years, which changed the metagame.

 

[T-bone1]

It seems like falcon players dair floaties (particularly puff) more in recent years. Obviously dair is not a groundbreaking technique, but the uses for it have evolved a bit.

 

[Doomolish]

Metagame it's gonna change now because of the OoC players.

 

[Slashtap]

It seems like falcon players dair floaties (particularly puff) more in recent years. Obviously dair is not a groundbreaking technique, but the uses for it have evolved a bit.

This is more the kind of trend I'd like hear details about, not so much the discovery of individual techniques from nonrecent years

 

[mixa]

loooool the replies from this guy

if smash were a uni course i'd say he wants us to do his homework

 

[Fireblaster]

Everyone has gotten better at DIing. I remember once upon a time that combos with drills were pretty consistent and dangerous. Nowadays, falcon combos aren't even 100% guaranteed death anymore.