Event - EVO 2016 EVO Custom Moves Ethical-ness

[PolarisInParis]

2015 will be my first EVO tournament (or, any game tournament for that matter), and I'm entered to compete in Smash for Wii U. I got really excited when the tournament announced that custom moves would be allowed, but then I realized that the team that balanced nearly 150 specials in Smash 4 is the same team who made Meta Knight in Brawl. Point is, there are going to be horrendously unbalanced setups.

While playing around with setups recently, I found one that my friends and I consider absolutely brutal to play against. I wouldn't say it's the most broken thing in the world, or even particularly ban-worthy, but it is supremely cheap and unfair.

Dave Sirlin once said that anything within a game is fair (excluding horrible glitches and such). Would it be right for me to play with this setup at EVO, knowing it'd not only be terribly unbalanced in my favor, but also completely unfun to watch? Or is this just the way I'll have to fight the people who use broken Villager customs?

 

[JmacAttack]

2015 will be my first EVO tournament (or, any game tournament for that matter), and I'm entered to compete in Smash for Wii U. I got really excited when the tournament announced that custom moves would be allowed, but then I realized that the team that balanced nearly 150 specials in Smash 4 is the same team who made Meta Knight in Brawl. Point is, there are going to be horrendously unbalanced setups.

Brawl and Meta Knight aren't supposed to be balanced, because Brawl's entire design philosophy was "anti-competition, at any cost". Sakurai owns the Kirby franchise, so I guess he felt like if he was giving balance the finger anyway, he might as well make his own IP the most overpowered thing in existence. I have a good feeling that many of the bugs that made characters non-viable were left in on purpose for that reason. Casuals won't notice it, so why fix it?

While playing around with setups recently, I found one that my friends and I consider absolutely brutal to play against. I wouldn't say it's the most broken thing in the world, or even particularly ban-worthy, but it is supremely cheap and unfair.

I doubt that, but even if you did find a setup that's hard to beat, it has to be one of the setups that the custom moveset project has approved, because EVO isn't going to allow anyone to upload customs, nor do they have fully unlocked Wii Us. Therefore, the only way to get customs legalized at all is to make 10 standardized sets that each of the character forums agreed have merit.

I also sincerely doubt you will get higher than last place at this tournament if it is your first one, even with an overpowered setup, so there's no chance of any of your matches being streamed. No offense or anything, but everyone thinks they're good before they go to their first tournament. The first time you go to a real, in-person tournament, that's the first time you truly understand how awful and scrubby you've been this whole time. I wouldn't be surprised if you got double 2-stocked both times using your "cheap" setup.

Also, since there will be at least two balance patches between now and Evo, there's no guarantee your custom set will stay as good as it is if it is truly broken.

Who knows? Go to a local tournament with customs legal and try it. If I'm wrong, and you do end up flattening everyone, you can be the one to expose it and get everyone aware of it. In doing so, people will also figure out its counter-play, which could be interesting in its own right.

Dave Sirlin once said that anything within a game is fair (excluding horrible glitches and such). Would it be right for me to play with this setup at EVO, knowing it'd not only be terribly unbalanced in my favor, but also completely unfun to watch? Or is this just the way I'll have to fight the people who use broken Villager customs?

Of course. Why do you think everyone who wants to win uses Diddy Kong? You want to win, you do what wins.

If you don't mind me asking, what is it?

 

[PolarisInParis]

"I doubt that, but even if you did find a setup that's hard to beat, it has to be one of the setups that the custom moveset project has approved, because EVO isn't going to allow anyone to upload customs, nor do they have fully unlocked Wii Us. Therefore, the only way to get customs legalized at all is to make 10 standardized sets that each of the character forums agreed have merit."

Ok, I wasn't aware that they were making predetermined custom sets. Then that completely negates my entire point.

Also, you seem to think that me saying "I found a cheap setup" is the same as "I'm going to body everyone at this worldwide tournament." Let me make one thing clear: I'm fully expecting to get wrecked, no delusions of gaming grandeur here. I'm only going because I recently developed a love of fighting games and wanted to experience a tournament (of which there are none, where I live). I'm super excited for the event, but I know there's no chance for my 7-month skills vs. people who've played Smash for nearly 20 years.

 

[Aninymouse]

Stop right there. Your VERY FIRST ARGUMENT is a fallacy. The team that developed Smash 4 IS NOT the same team that made Brawl. Yes, some people, like Sakurai, worked on both games. However, it's no secret that Namco played a huge part in making this game.

I don't even feel like reading anything else you just whined about if you're going to toss around misinformation.

 

[PolarisInParis]

It's a logical fallacy to say there will be unbalanced setups? Alright. Apologies for making a slight... not even error, but misattribution in a post that clearly states I'm newer to Smash and fighting games at large than your average EVO contender, and apologies that it upset you that much.

 

[AlphaAustin]

Welcome to the smash community. Play who you do well with and have fun at the tournament, that's what friendly competition and games are about man.

 

[Tempus]

I wouldn't worry about it. First off, player skill trumps move balance every time. Only when the skill differential between players is close does the strength of moves come into play. Secondly, it's possible your friend group just simply doesn't know how to counter the customs you have in mind. At the moment, there are relatively few customs that are considered unusually strong, and none that are clear winners. DK's tornado is often cited as one of the more overpowered customs - yet it's still punished at very high level play, and hasn't brought DK up to the top.

The moves that your group has difficulty with could easily be counterable by those who have found it's weakness somewhere else. Small, insular groups develop their own meta, which doesn't always translate at larger tourneys. Take your game winning setup to EVO, and do your best to wreck the competition! Everyone else will be bringing their all as well.

 

[PolarisInParis]

I wouldn't worry about it. First off, player skill trumps move balance every time. Only when the skill differential between players is close does the strength of moves come into play. Secondly, it's possible your friend group just simply doesn't know how to counter the customs you have in mind. At the moment, there are relatively few customs that are considered unusually strong, and none that are clear winners. DK's tornado is often cited as one of the more overpowered customs - yet it's still punished at very high level play, and hasn't brought DK up to the top.

The moves that your group has difficulty with could easily be counterable by those who have found it's weakness somewhere else. Small, insular groups develop their own meta, which doesn't always translate at larger tourneys. Take your game winning setup to EVO, and do your best to wreck the competition! Everyone else will be bringing their all as well.

Very good point, never thought of our group with that degree of scale. I also feel better knowing that Nintendo's going to be releasing more balance patches before July (they've already nerfed Diddy Kong).

 

[thehero19]

even if your customs you are using is OP, it's hard to beat players who have been playing for years if you haven't been goin.g training for the past year and had prevoius tornement experence. I watch the compotition every year, and THEY ARE GOOD! im not saying you are bad or anything, it's just that some of these people are amazing players becuase it's there job. Just train and study the metagame, it made me better. (but im not planning on going to EVO or a big event like that for years)

 

[PolarisInParis]

Shoot. For those of you who were wondering, my setup's been discovered by the Smash community now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waR9js3dabI

One of my friends absolutely despises when I use Pikachu against him (he uses Bowser and a lot of other heavy characters), so I tried to make the most annoying custom Pikachu in the world. While teleporting back and forth across him, I accidentally stumbled on this stun locking glitch. Granted, I had a more difficult time maintaining a combo, and I never thought to put in the neutral attacks, but all I could hear was my friend screaming about was that he couldn't do anything. I never realized he had to be above at 40%, though, so when the move only worked half the time, I wrote it off as just a pure glitch rather than an actual combination of mechanics.

I wasn't and still aren't planning to take this setup to EVO, though, just because I don't like Pickachu's lack of weight and general moveset. It was just a fun trolling setup.

 

[Tempus]

This setup was just used at MVG Sandstorm by Z. He got repeatedly crushed on stream by M2K while attempting to use it, and then again on stream in losers bracket by AirVault. In the end he reverted back to classic Pikachu tactics. M2K in particular escaped it in set 1, and then in set 2 power shielded every single shock. Every one. No hope.

 

[Mr. Mistersen]

Is there a VOD of that tempus?

 

[Tinkerer]

This has been discussed to death on the Smash 4 competitive forums already: barring any glitches (Order Tackle + Reflector Amplifier, which has been fixed) there haven't been any custom combinations that are broken. Unbalanced is a tricky one to argue as the game, per definition, is unbalanced. Customs do not really add or detract from that. That Pikachu infinite, as far as people can actually make it work, is not a set that's available in the EVO list of movesets anyway, so don't worry about that.

 

[N00BiksCube]

EVO isn't going to allow anyone to upload customs, nor do they have fully unlocked Wii Us. Therefore, the only way to get customs legalized at all is to make 10 standardized sets that each of the character forums agreed have merit.

They are leaving 2 slots open for each character for people that want to upload their own personal sets.

http://smashboards.com/threads/official-custom-moveset-project-summer-2015-edition-evo-sets.395721/

 

[JmacAttack]

They are leaving 2 slots open for each character for people that want to upload their own personal sets.

http://smashboards.com/threads/official-custom-moveset-project-summer-2015-edition-evo-sets.395721/

Did you read the thread you're linking to? EVO is using all 10 slots with presets, because the TO doesn't want anyone uploading anything.