ELI5 why Zelda is such a garbo character?

[❤ Nikodemus05]

As a Samus main, I feel for you guys.

I honestly don't think she's the worst in the game, though. Samus has some legitimately broken stuff about her that's not limited to total hitbox failures as a result of bad coding. Does Zelda have anything like that, that makes her the worst by default?

 

[Estel Elessar]

It used to be a lot bigger problem but people would fall out of her F-smash all the time.

 

[Zylach]

Zelda doesn't have a lot of broken hitboxes in the same way that Samus does. The closest we get is ftilt's blind spot. We do have bad hitboxes in the form of them being tall so stuff like jab, grab, utilt, and usmash miss short and crouching characters. It just requires us to be more conscious about what moves we're using in which MU's, not as much cursing the game design laziness. I know a lot of my gripes about Samus are that a lot of her attacks aren't even safe on hit like ftilt and jab 1. Zelda has dair if the opponent techs and sourspotted kicks which is why I try to avoid using them unless I know they'll hit.

Honestly, people say that Zelda is the worst character in the game when they simply look at frame data, whether or not she can approach, and her mobility. A lot of the metagame revolves around good frame data, safe approaches, and high mobility so Zelda doesn't fit that archetype. She's kinda the opposite which leads people to believe that she's the absolute worst character in the game when they don't understand exactly how hyper-defensive play works lol.

She's got her problems and I'd like some particular things for her in upcoming patches but I'm still having fun with her.

 

[❤ Nikodemus05]

Zelda doesn't have a lot of broken hitboxes in the same way that Samus does. The closest we get is ftilt's blind spot. We do have bad hitboxes in the form of them being tall so stuff like jab, grab, utilt, and usmash miss short and crouching characters. It just requires us to be more conscious about what moves we're using in which MU's, not as much cursing the game design laziness. I know a lot of my gripes about Samus are that a lot of her attacks aren't even safe on hit like ftilt and jab 1. Zelda has dair if the opponent techs and sourspotted kicks which is why I try to avoid using them unless I know they'll hit.

Honestly, people say that Zelda is the worst character in the game when they simply look at frame data, whether or not she can approach, and her mobility. A lot of the metagame revolves around good frame data, safe approaches, and high mobility so Zelda doesn't fit that archetype. She's kinda the opposite which leads people to believe that she's the absolute worst character in the game when they don't understand exactly how hyper-defensive play works lol.

She's got her problems and I'd like some particular things for her in upcoming patches but I'm still having fun with her.

Couldn't agree more, especially about hyper defensive gameplay since both our characters exceed in that aspect. I don't think both of our characters are the worst by a large margin.

 

[Zylach]

Couldn't agree more, especially about hyper defensive gameplay since both our characters exceed in that aspect. I don't think both of our characters are the worst by a large margin.

I remember hearing about the Japanese meta thinking Samus to be decent. That was some time ago but it's fun to watch Japanese Samus players since they do some really crazy things with her. I haven't heard of any meaningful tier lists that place Zelda any higher than bottom though lol. Maybe Nairo's own personal one. We're working on exploring all of her options but we can't develop her metagame as fast as most other characters due to popularity.

 

[Rion]

Basically, her design is like... really counter-intuitive?

She's so reliant on reacting defensively / counter-offensively due to her slow speed and frame-perfect precise aerial game, yet they made it so that she doesn't have many safe tools to force any of these situations where she shines most.

Din's is completely out of the question most of the time, especially on anyone remotely fast mobility wise (you Din's on Sonic or Falcon, you're just asking to get brutally murdered).

Phantom Knight is alright, but there's still a significant amount of commitment you need to make to it in order for it to be remotely effective (better than Din's by a miles though). There are times where if you don't let go of Phantom crazy early as they're approaching you from the air let's say, it's a free punish for them with how laggy it is after words.

Not to mention that both of these projectiles require a very obvious and predictable channeling time. Couple that with her slow speed and average reach, she can't really force a lot of things to happen with her regular attacks either.

It's ironic but, her worst match ups are probably when people play patiently and defensive. Against someone like Fox as an example, who can just spam lasers at you until you very predictably approach him, it becomes a very up hill battle for her as she has no quick reponse to "jab / needling" tactics nor does she have the speed to properly punish people for this.

You either have to get very risky, which is not very good, or you have to have a hell lot more patience, which can be discouraging against certain opponents that can easily dance and bait her into doing things because they have the safe tools to do so.

God, if Zelda has something like Fox's lasers or Sheik's needles or even a store charge Phantom Knight, I would be pretty happy about that as those are things that would actually force people to approach her since she would actually be at an advantage (more or less) in a neutral situation, which would alleviate (even a little bit) her glaring mobility flaws and be helpful to her character as a whole in my opinion.

Just my two cents of course, heh heh.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Auntie Rion always appears when i'm not here lol.

the new shield system also wasn't a nice change to Zelda. she lost some of her defensive retaliation in exchange for an already safeish move being made safer (jab) and a sometimes safeish move relatively safe (fsmash) but everybody who could barely dance around her shield now can and adds to the list of characters she has a really hard time punishing.

Honestly like auntie Rion said, like i've been saying for months now if Zelda had a way to force people to get in her face she would jump to at least low tier hopeful status and not sit in the bottom tier threshold with Vanilla Pally.

speaking of Vanilla Pally...she's also an example of hyper defensive play but she actually has a few perks that Zelda doesn't have like better movement speed, armor attacks which can let her Yolo sometimes and not get hurt for it if they attack, and a projectile that at least makes people close in so she stops spamming it. Pally just has less options when people are all up in her Vag and bad roll coverage which Zelda is only marginally better at.

 

[Silverwind 2020]

Basically, her design is like... really counter-intuitive?

She's so reliant on reacting defensively / counter-offensively due to her slow speed and frame-perfect precise aerial game, yet they made it so that she doesn't have many safe tools to force any of these situations where she shines most.

Din's is completely out of the question most of the time, especially on anyone remotely fast mobility wise (you Din's on Sonic or Falcon, you're just asking to get brutally murdered).

Phantom Knight is alright, but there's still a significant amount of commitment you need to make to it in order for it to be remotely effective (better than Din's by a miles though). There are times where if you don't let go of Phantom crazy early as they're approaching you from the air let's say, it's a free punish for them with how laggy it is after words.

Not to mention that both of these projectiles require a very obvious and predictable channeling time. Couple that with her slow speed and average reach, she can't really force a lot of things to happen with her regular attacks either.

It's ironic but, her worst match ups are probably when people play patiently and defensive. Against someone like Fox as an example, who can just spam lasers at you until you very predictably approach him, it becomes a very up hill battle for her as she has no quick reponse to "jab / needling" tactics nor does she have the speed to properly punish people for this.

You either have to get very risky, which is not very good, or you have to have a hell lot more patience, which can be discouraging against certain opponents that can easily dance and bait her into doing things because they have the safe tools to do so.

God, if Zelda has something like Fox's lasers or Sheik's needles or even a store charge Phantom Knight, I would be pretty happy about that as those are things that would actually force people to approach her since she would actually be at an advantage (more or less) in a neutral situation, which would alleviate (even a little bit) her glaring mobility flaws and be helpful to her character as a whole in my opinion.

Just my two cents of course, heh heh.

Just remember, they aren't baiting Zelda, they're baiting YOU. You have to be careful as well as aggressive. I find Zelda works rather well for me on most occasions. I have to use different methods against faster characters, but it's usually their speed that causes them to become over confident and run straight into something deadly. People with speedy mains tend to dash in for grabs. Fortunately this is where Zelda's standard attack comes in handy, stopping the character in their tracks, allowing you to use a dash attack, or grab, followed by strong combos. Everyone keeps trying to do these complicated moves they see the "pros" do, but they are oblivious to the fact that you can't just expect to use someone else's techniques and become awesome just like that. Take your time, and find what works for you. My friends used to say how much Zelda sucked. Then they played against me. Now they know the player makes the character, not the other way around.

 

[Valamway]

"A skilled Zelda can beat any Fox in the world."

You're talking low-level stuff here.
Only shallow mental play.

No one would argue that a significantly better player can't win with Zelda, but thinking of two players with equal skill and experience, a Sheik main will outwin a Zelda main.
Because Sheik is a better character and because the matchup is in her favor.
Of course, this doesn't mean the Zelda player will never win; just that they are at a pretty big disadvantage.

So with all seriousness, is Zelda "garbo"?
Not really, but she's far from great.
Suboptimal is the nicest term I can think of for her.
She is low tier, and that means something even to those who don't care about tier lists.
Her matchup spread is borderline depressing, especially compared to more common tournament picks.

Zelda doesn't suck if the player doesn't suck, but she certainly doesn't do you any favors.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

She is low tier, and that means something even to those who don't care about tier lists.
Her matchup spread is borderline depressing, especially compared to more common tournament picks.

Zelda doesn't suck if the player doesn't suck, but she certainly doesn't do you any favors.

i think her matchup spread is roughly OK and only depressing when you get to the higher ends of it. Mac, Peach, and Olimar aside.

 

[Silverwind 2020]

You're talking low-level stuff here.
Only shallow mental play.

No one would argue that a significantly better player can't win with Zelda, but thinking of two players with equal skill and experience, a Sheik main will outwin a Zelda main.
Because Sheik is a better character and because the matchup is in her favor.
Of course, this doesn't mean the Zelda player will never win; just that they are at a pretty big disadvantage.

So with all seriousness, is Zelda "garbo"?
Not really, but she's far from great.
Suboptimal is the nicest term I can think of for her.
She is low tier, and that means something even to those who don't care about tier lists.
Her matchup spread is borderline depressing, especially compared to more common tournament picks.

Zelda doesn't suck if the player doesn't suck, but she certainly doesn't do you any favors.

In my eyes, Zelda has improved exponentially. She gets a bad rap because of her low power, mobility, and move options in previous Smash games. While she isn't the fastest, she doesn't need to be. Just using Zelda messes with the opponents' minds. In Smash 4, Zelda has improved mechanics, and because of the Zelda/Sheik split, she has another powerful move. She may be at a disadvantage when it comes to speed, but her moves allow her to take on multiple opponents at once, and guard against faster attackers. Sheik's fast, but she's light, and doesn't do all that much damage. It's been shown that Sheik has trouble K.O. ing at times, while tending to get K.O.ed herself. I'm gonna have to say that with the same level of experience, a Zelda main can beat a Sheik main. Not easily, mind you, but it's certainly possible.