Elevator Tips? And Zelda thoughts

[Sailor Mercury]

So, I've seen many videos and many people commenting about how elevator is one of Zelda's best kill moves. I agree that her TELEPORT is one of her best kill moves, however, I have a LOT of trouble actually getting an elevator in. The only way I can seem to sometimes get one is if I use up throw and teleport into it. Otherwise, I've landed maybe 4 elevators so far? Now, I've only had sm4sh for under a week, but I've played quite a lot of games.
So I was wondering if any Zelda's out there could give me some tips on what to do to get a proper elevator in? Am I missing something, or is it just completely unreliable?

On to the Zelda thoughts..Like I said, I've only had sm4sh for less than a week. I feel like I'm in the minority when I say this, but maybe I'm not? I prefer brawl's Zelda over sm4sh's by a long shot. I feel as though all of Zelda's moves have a ton of end lag in them in sm4sh compared to brawl. Love jumping is not HALF as beneficial in sm4sh as it was in brawl, and you can't do as many things with it. Love boosting doesn't work anymore.

I also feel like Zelda's match ups in sm4sh are far more brutal than in brawl. She was more fluent in brawl, more graceful and her kit seemed to work well together..Whereas in sm4sh everything seems so slow and full of end lag. The tiers seem a lot more...tiered? If that makes sense. I just feel as though she is way worse in sm4sh in comparison to other characters than she was in brawl in comparison to other characters. I don't know if it's because I had a lot more experience in brawl than I do in sm4sh so far, but I'm having trouble adjusting to mainly her bair/fair/nayru's love end lag. Is it only me?

I've commented on a few threads saying some of these things but I figured I'd open a new thread to see people's opinions.

 

[KarmaCastle]

95% of my elevator KOs come from a perfectshield or spot dodge follow up. There are fancy ways to get it, most recently discovered was the short-hop neutral air into farore's wind. This is incredibly hard to do though because you can't start the NAIR too early, or let it go too late less the enemy be knocked back. Elevators can KO at 50%, but the risk involved is really steep. Missing an elevator is almost a guaranteed punish by a competent opponent and will often lead to your death; IE a fully charged smash while you yourself are around 50%. Your best bet is going in to punish something incredibly laggy (Luigi up-bs on stage) or a sick spot dodge. Maybe even a hard roll read.

Using it OOS or after spot dodging a grab is one of the safer options, just be wary depending on how laggy (or not) your opponent is.

As far as the lag and brawl comparison, you're right. She got an easier box to hit her sweetspot in, at the cost of pretty much everything else. Less launch (though whole cast lost a bit of launch power overall) and WAY WAY WAY more lag; so much so that a sweet spot lightning kick on shield isn't safe from even slow characters. Which I think is messed up . Sour spot punish is one thing, but sweet spot on such a small hitbox? Pls.

There's end lag at the end of Nayru's making it unsafe against speed demons like Sheik/Captain Falcon who don't even care if they get a full hit from it, they'll punish you for successfully using your pseudo emergency button, and apparently they removed some of our invulnerability frames according to some youtube videos (Esam's worst 10 claims she lost it early on the Wii U patches, gotta find a source tho) . But don't let them get to you; NL is pretty safe as a 'get away pleb' button against 90% of the cast.

They gave her a ton of killing power at the cost of massive lag. The elevator, lightning kick, up air, up smash, forward smash, dair can meteor, even ftilt and down smash can KO at 120% on the ledge. Farores Wind is pretty much the overall laggiest move in the entire game. Din's Fire and the Phantom both have painful end lag too. Fairly typical lag after fmash, awful lag on Usmash. Down dsmash and tilt are pretty safe though! Even our forward tilt has a bit of lag after it.

The tier thing is less serious though, in my opinion, and a lot of pro smashers feel the same about SM4SH. Characters all have a chance. Nairo beat Nietono's Sheik with Zelda; the best japanese smasher. Characters have a shot, though it's certainly easier to win with some matchups against others.

Overall though, it's clear she was designed to punish enemies hard, similar to MallmomDorf. She hits hard, can KO early... But lacks many true combos and is easily punished. Play defensively and react to your opponent. With the exception of mix ups and catching the opponent offguard with an approach, 90% of the time you want to force them to approach you and react with the best tool. Nair is great against most neutral floaters and the people that love short hopping to bait out your NL/Shield. Jab negates dash attacks and grabs really well, as does dtilt. Fsmash does well at deterring super fast characters that have trouble stopping (Sanic). Use the Phantom to make space for yourself and force opponents in the air so you know exactly how to react before they even know what they're going to do. If someone commits too hard, punish with that sweet elevator or shorthop lightning kick. And or make a montage of missing it to the 'Oooh whatcha saaaay....' song.

For bonus points, if your opponent KOs you first and you were both at high percents, FW2 can KO at 70+ on the sides of the stage. Stall on the invulnerability platform so they lower their guard and hit them with a quick FW. In for glory it's almost always a free stock.

Oh! Nearly forgot. Once you get used to the maximum distance of Farore's don't be afraid to try sniping someone in the air. One of the best feelings in the world is double jumping into FW and killing someone while they're still off screen on the ceiling. Brings a tear to me eye. And if you whiff, you've usually freaked them out so much they can't react and you can fastfall once the lag ends. Creative use of FW is a very strong tool at our disposal. And don't forget ledge cancelling!

 

[Sailor Mercury]

So I'm not the only one who feels this way. Good to know. The kill moves you listed though, are all KO moves on brawl too(excluding FW). That's my biggest issue, they nerfed her for reasons I will never understand. All I can hope for is for them to lower the end lag on nayru's love and lightning kicks and give us back those 2 kicks in a row(1 sour spot leading into a lightning kick)in 1 double jump..And the classic sour spot kick>half of nair>lightning kick. That was such a reliable combo it's such a shame we no longer have it. Honestly, I don't notice the lightning kick's hitbox being any easier to hit. I hit a lot of lightning kicks on brawl, and that may or may not be due to being able to use a kick so often..But either way, I'd pick brawl's Zelda over sm4sh's any day. Hopefully as more patches come Zelda won't be left out.

As for the tier thing, I'm all for it being in the player's control of who wins the game. There's no doubt about that, I've seen every Nairo video(though I think there were many better Zelda players than Nairo on brawl). Sheik isn't such a difficult character, she's fast but her damage is too low in combination with her lack of killing moves makes her less of a threat than some others. What I meant by what I said was that it seems like Zelda really got the short end of the stick in this game, even more than in brawl. I hope patches change that, I really do, but I'm doubtful. It's clear they intended to do this to Zelda, and for them to change her ending lag back to similar to brawl, while it would make me very happy, is not likely to happen. I'll keep wishing though, maybe Sakurai reads these forums.

Overall, I guess I'm doing things correctly, in terms of defensively and forcing them to approach. I make a conscious effort to do so in every match. I'm glad I'm not the only one that's figured out that waiting in the spawn platform leading to FW is such an easy KO. It's pretty funny how often it works!

I think that as I play more I'll learn more match ups and become more comfortable with her. After all, I did play brawl for so many years that I was naturally comfortable with Zelda as a result from that. But there's definitely no denying the nerfs they've given her. The only thing that changed in terms of KO power is FW. Her U air got nerfed in terms of kill power even. Oh well, can't really do anything about it. I'll stick with Zelda until the end.