Edgeguarding with Mario

[M@1funk$hun]

I need some help edgeguarding against basically everyone except spacies because they are easy mode
Captain Falcon is tough for me because if he recovers right he's probably above me. What do I do from there?
and other characters I simply haven't played yet so edgeuarding thoughts?

 

[mastermoo420]

I'm not a Mario main, but I can easily answer the C.Falcon question. But why the trouble with C.Falcon? He's easier to edgeguard than the spacies because he really only has one recovery option. Just edgehog until the last moment; if he fails to grab the ledge, he dies. If he goes over, there's enough landing lag that you'll probably be able to f-air him. If not, just cape him. In any case, cape is your best option (as long as they don't perfectly sweetspot the ledge from below. In that case, you could just jump off and bair them into the stage for a stage spike), most likely.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

he'll usually land on the stage with me and I have a habit of staying on the ledge. the fair comes out too slow for me and the cape in that situation may work. Maybe if I wavedash onto the stage and grab I can get him back off.

 

[Winston]

Edgeguarding Falcon with Mario is like one of the most fun things about Mario, haha... because tehre are so many things that work and there's not always an obvious right answer.

Some things that work for me:

If he's sent high and far, he'll likely try for a falcon kick. If you see this you can jump out a little bit and then if he does the kick, you can intercept with a bair, which is usually either kills him or hits him low enough so that you can easily cape/fsmash him to finish. If he doesn't do the kick you can just jump back and resume like normal.

If he's up bing from below the stage, especially at low percent, cape is the best way to kill him. If you aren't confident you can aim the cape properly you can do a bair or two to try and send him a little farther, but since Mario's bair doesn't have the nice downward angle that Doc's does, most of the time you will have to land a cape to finish the gimp.

In most other situation, just aggressively use bair and cape if you can intercept him offstage, and just keep hitting him until he is in a situation where you can land fsmash/cape by the edge to finish him.

summary: if he is able to start his up b high, and therefore it would be hard to cover all his options from on the stage, go offstage and intercept. If he is up bing from below the stage, stand on the edge and cape.

There's probably a bunch of other ways I haven't mentioned to edgeguard falcon. I think you just have to experiment a lot and get a feel for it, and you can edgeguard him every time.

 

[j3ly]

incorrect, falcon has a tonn of options!


firstly the height is important, if its high enough you can do a safe down B
if its not so good, you have to nkow if its obvious or not, they can hit you or throw a projectile or just take the edge
from that, or without the extra jump you either UP B early, the choices from that are..

go above them
go for a forward edge cancel
go for a backwards edge cancel
land about midstage
go back for the edge
SPACE then go for the edge
go for a platform
fall through a platform
if all those fail, you DI as best as you can and repeat
if you aim to just get hit on purpose
then go midstage
cause tis better to get another chance recovering then just losing a whole stock



basically 3 main options - recover high, he can lean into the stage or away, or he can trick you and
recover by grabbing the edge/edge cancelling

low and go for the sweetspot - go low and aim for just above the edge

you gotta be fully aware of falcons options, as be able to space the cape and fsmash. if you are at the edge, very close and falcon is offstage he is in trouble. falcon can move alot in the air after his upB - its his defence. no matter how much he moves however, he cant avoid an fsmash - if he goes for the edge, fsmash, if not - fsmash. behind you? fsmash. if there is a platform he will prolly go for that, WD onto it and dsmash.

if he goes really low, do a rising nair from an edgehogging position. it will kill him.


The idea of falcon, is that you do upB to recover. if he does it high, then most likely he will fake landing on the stage, and then use that amazing aereal movement to swerve back and grab the edge. follow? for this reason, cape (in the air) or fsmash (on the ground) are the best options. If he goes for the swerve, onto the ledge, fsmash will catch him. if he does not, well you have tons of time so jam out and think.

ps - learning how to WD off the platform is gold. bthrow -> wavedash off the platform -> double bair is an instant gimp against falcons that either use their 2nd jump below the stage, or people who instantly jump after being thrown off the stage. its fuxin ****

 

[mastermoo420]

Oh yeah, also, if you want to freak them out, you can do SHFF's to play some mindgames and get them thinking. Face your back towards them, though. This way, if you're able to control yourself, you have the option of jumping/WDing to the ledge, jumping to use bair or any other aerial if they don't hit the ledge, FF and then f-smash them, side-B if you want, etc. Lots of options are covered (imo) here and it provides pressure.

Also, sup Winston, lol

 

[j3ly]

also the floor hitbox on dair denies falcon ANY chance of sweetspotting. from that, you could cape, DAFT, charge a smash, dropzone nair, dropzone bair/uair

edgeguarding falcon is one of the easiest things once you know whats going on. falcon does however have the best survival DI in the game by a long shot - so you will probably have to edgeguard him several times until he actually dies if ur playing a pro, unless u can catch him without a 2nd jump under the stage - then he is fuxxxed

 

[Winston]

I don't agree with always using the "follow where he lands and smash" method. Sometimes you can't get in position in time for something else, but it shouldn't be your first choice. The problem with this is if falcon is at 80-100 or so, which he often will be when recovering, a dsmash or even sweetspotted fsmash in the opposite direction won't kill him if he DIs. If you are on FD, PS, or DL, it probably won't even let you edgeguard again, as he'll end up on the stage at the other end before you can reach him. He'll just be off the hook with an extra 18% or something.

edit: I honestly don't think edgeguarding falcon is one of the "easiest things" in the game, unless you are playing falcons who have bad DI. Sure, it's very easy when they are up Bing from below the stage. The problem is, like the OP said, he will often be up Bing from a high position, and considering Mario's lack of KO power overall, you have to be fairly precise to get the kill every single time.

edit2: sup jae xD

 

[j3ly]

but with clever spacing you can effectively create a line that it is impossible for him to cross once he has no second jump. that line is vertical and in line with the ledge. unless ofc he recovers freakishly high, in which case u gotta guess if hes gonna land on platforms/fallthrough/edgecancel.

but once he is without his jump, its over over. besides if he does not swerve onto the ledge and lands behind, who would fsmash his back away from the ledge. uthrow -> bair / b throw is always gonna be the best option unless he is like 200% - i wouldent even risk fsmash at 150%.

i find it useful to jump up nd FF down - to bait him into swerving and grabbing the edge. at which point its too late and he will recieve an fsmash for sure

if he lands behind in stun at a % where bthrow isnt wise, then punish him with a beast combo starting with utilt or grab

 

[M@1funk$hun]

thanks for the advice from what jely and gustav wind said it actually does sound fun just because there so much crap you can choose from. I hadn't even considered half the stuff you said (btw gustav wind I like ur avatar. alot. can I date it? ahem)
I haven't had much playing people experience cause I'm on LI where there is not many people to play and far enough away from NYC for it to be time consuming to go there, hence this thread cause I've had too much time just thinking about stuff.
Jely, with the l-cancel dair thing, I find that it doesn't have much knockback and usually ends up with me doing an infinite loop of them to my opponent. Like in the one match darkrain played where he meteor cancelled the fox forever till he died. lol.
Also, how is fair for edgeguarding?

 

[j3ly]

good against everybody, get it as late as possible on flat ground. do it very rarely, because its asy to cancel. but lets say you use it once in a set of 3 games - it will probably land a KO. especially good against marth recovering low.

lol the dairs floor hitbox is for that purpose - it sends them a tiny tiny bit away. like everything if you opp knows for a fact you are going to do it, they will counter appropriately. But if you use it randomly, one time out of 5 - hes not going to know. you could keep it as an endless loop, or take advantage of your knowledge and try to follow up instantly, or after 2

 

[M@1funk$hun]

so basically keep my options open. that makes sense. that's why I love mario. options options options. there's even a few really ****ty ones I tried. like one time I used his down b to hover right next to the edge. it was funny till I realized I didn't have a double jump...
but anyway this stuff should help. thank you.
I feel like a jerk for bouncing all these ideas off you but against sheik I usually go out and bair them after their double jump. is there a better way to edgeguard her that I don't see?

 

[j3ly]

hahahaha, yes yes but you wouldent know about it if you dont attend tournaments regularily.

the following is common knowledge, if you were doing try-outs for a crew and didnt do it you wouldent get into the crew

send her offstage, with bair or something
grab the edge, be ready to drop + cape (so u regrab and get invi. frames) if she has a jump, and is going to fair you as she jumps.

she is now forced to go onstage, or directly above the ledge. her only 2 options, asside landing on a platform.

shiek has some of the worst recovery time from upB in the game. once she lands on the stage, she remains there for about a second - tons of time to grab/utilt/fsmash. rinse and repete, its a 0-death combo on a couple stages if you perform it well enough.


the secret to many things..

how did allies win the world war? strategy, along with intelligence from spys and whatnot.
how come the germans beat england so badly in football? they knew what our midfielder were going to do

if you have the information, you have the ability to counter attack. the more you know about your opponents recovery options, the better you can read them, and the more ready to perform a counter without messin up

ps, the bair wont work for long. when your shiek realises that fair makes her double jump travel a fair bit further, and protects her from attacks, he will do it every time. EVERY time lol.

 

[j3ly]

edit: I honestly don't think edgeguarding falcon is one of the "easiest things" in the game, unless you are playing falcons who have bad DI. Sure, it's very easy when they are up Bing from below the stage. The problem is, like the OP said, he will often be up Bing from a high position, and considering Mario's lack of KO power overall, you have to be fairly precise to get the kill every single time.

fortunately i have the luxury of playing the best falcon in europe, maybe the world (they have never clashed so i dunno) so ive learned alottttt from playing him

 

[M@1funk$hun]

since I'm from NY I thought you meant american, butt our heads together, knock each other to the ground football. then you posted the europe thing and I'm like "that makes so much more sense now..."
who's the falcon you're talking about? retroking? because I think the best in america is SilentSpectre (debatable though)

 

[j3ly]

hahaha, edwin is goooooooooooooooodd but he mains marth. his falcon is ok tho, vids are very outdated - 2 nationals and many monthlies since i uploaded :s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRAqu5IK3yA - best falcon in europe, top 5 in Europe i'd say.

i think darkrain is better than SS, but thats my own opinion. his reading is... i dont think he even reads his reactions are just craaaaaaaaaaaaazy

 

[M@1funk$hun]

lol agreed on the darkrain thing but the Spectre does that **** that makes my pants lit
and I only said that from ur vids as you obviously figured out.
From that vid Fuzzy has some pretty intense mindgames...never seen his falc before
oh man now I wanna see an all out falcon brawl lol
omg. there was a yoshi in that vid. a rare sighting indeed.
music choices in the vid we're perfect too. but enough about that XD

 

[j3ly]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POehbnpUmwo

1 mins 18 onwards, thats perfect falcon recovery imo.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el6IDZP0kEQ
And this is not the perfect falcon recovery.

but back to business, from the vid you put up of that recovery I think you can still f-smash him to the other side of the stage if you waveland on

 

[j3ly]

a better idea would be to perfect waveland to the other side of him, and fsmash the direction from whence he came. perfect waveland is very difficult wit mario tho. daymnnn too many SD's

you could do, you could just waveland on and fsmash him to the other side. do that for the ease if they are lacking in DI. if they A/SDI everything up and inwards, then even at like 150% you are gonna have serious problems unless its PS or YS.

although remeber, if at any point you are edgehogging a falcon and he is at 140%, do nothing flashy. 140% = dthrow usmash, and it cant be DI'd out of that high i dont believe. WL onto the stage and grab (same goes for fox/falco)

 

[condemned_soul]

B-air is my favorite hands down. almost nothing beats that satisfaction of B-airing someone 2-3 times then grabbing the ledge knowing that they can not recover no matter they do.

 

[j3ly]

does anybody have the xp to explain in depth the options and likelyhood of fox being below the edge, mario caping him and fox still grabbing the edge.

i know if fox goes at a direct upwards angle he turns around in his upB. but in depth info would be alot nicer

 

[condemned_soul]

That is used only when people actually know the Mario/Fox MU. I cant go into detail but I know a Fsmash will get them to not try that again though.

 

[j3ly]

thankyou for ur advise and input in these 2 threads, ill try fsmash when i suspect the above scenario is gnna happen.

im trying to learn down angled fsmash as a punishment for missed sweetspots/fox/falco sweetspotting from above the ledge. just like falco edgeguarding with DAFT. in tourament i love to see if somebody will rush over to the edge after starting a new stock, i practise inbetween stocks down angling fsmash over the edge and sometimes people run in and get themselves gimped.

also trying to learn running duck-cancelled fsmash to punish people who buffer spot dodges from rolls/are generally predictable with spot dodges - i cant hit down with the control stick and then side and A consistently, so i am running, pressing down, using c-stick to do the smash and hitting Z to it charges up. Tis very **** when i get it

also thanks for bein active on this forum :D if maybe 5 people were consistently posting every day we'd get new posters and new mario mains. im trying to being some uk people into the fold xD

 

[M@1funk$hun]

I"ve been watching some of the vids in the video thread and heres a question
Why aren't we using the fireballs?
They are great gimping tools, while maybe not as effective as pills on stage, but still they're no joke from my experience.

 

[Winston]

It's fine to throw out a full jump fireball if you have time, but what specific scenarios are you talking about? In general I don't think it's worth sacrificing Mario's ability to just cover space animals' recovery options mostly on reaction.

Against falcon it doesn't really make him lose height and I think if you have time to fireball you should just jump out there.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

yeah on falcon it sucks. totally agreed. I'm concentrating mostly on spacies with the fireballs and maybe other marios. I'm just saying that since it is our only projectile we could try and use it for other reasons other than just making a defensive fire wall

 

[condemned_soul]

well IMO i think that there are characters that can be fireball all day. falcon is fast and if we messes up a fireball, we are so messed up all the way from being juggled to just a simple knee.

 

[j3ly]

i know a tonn of gimps with fireballs that i dont use in friendlies and save for tournament matches, but y'all have to wait for my combo video to see those

if your opponent catches onto fireball spam you are in trouble. from close to ur opponent, imo the only effective form is retreating FH fireball. cos it gives mario space, and the fireball protects his trajectory.

however, if a) samus is to read it - she can dash attack below you, and probably catch you.
b) falcon is to read it - he can knee where you will be in 2 seconds, which will neutralise the fireball like its nothing and catch you. different chars have diff punishments for the above 2 situations

sometimes it is totaly safe, sometimes its an awful idea. comes down to predictability and how leet ur opponent is

 

[j3ly]

oops_______

 

[A2ZOMG]

Edgeguarding Falcon is REALLY easy. But it is important to know your opponent to get the best results, since if Falcon manages to save his jump and DI correctly, the situation can be a 50/50 if he is able to make you guess whether or not he will land on stage or grab the edge.

Honestly Caping his Up-B is usually too difficult. However all you need to do is B-air him off stage and he's basically dead if he's at a mid percent. Know when to WD -> B-air to gimp his low recovery. If he's recovering high, usually you can react to it as long as you are patient and wait near or on the edge. If you're on the edge, ledgehop U-air can cover options if he's trying to land on stage. If you grab him, keep in mind that D-throw -> D-smash is a good combo for getting him offstage.

 

[condemned_soul]

Falcon Edgeguarding:

Low percentage edgeguarding
- if he is high, Use 2 back airs back to back and then grab the ledge. you can also follow him to where he lands and starting to combo him since he is easy for mario to combo.
- if he is mid, Down smash, forward smash, cape, or grab the ledge then Back air
- if he is low, grab the ledge, go out there and back air, or use a fireball ( they try to come back from that, you can just cape them/ grab the ledge)

Mid Percentage edgeguarding
- If he is high, do a Up tilt> the Up air> then neutral air. you can back air falcon, wait til him come back and then back air him again until he is too far from the ledge. You can possibly wait till he lands and grab him to start a combo
- If he is mid, you can cape him, Back air him, Down smash him, or forward smash him.
- If he is low, you should go out there with him and hit him with moves like Neutral air, Back air, cape, and only fair if you see he isnt paying attention.

High Percentage
- If he is high, then just use moves that will knock him far away from the board like back air, Down smash, Forward smash, Neutral air, and backwards Up air.
- If he is Mid, then just Forward smash, cape, down smash, Back air, backwards Up air, and Foward tilt.
- If he is low, then back air is your best friend. there are other ways to kill him but the one you should use is grab the ledge then Back air him and the stock is gone.

 

[unknown522]

Edgeguarding Just hit him off the stage, and don't let him take the ledge. When he lands on the stage, he has a lot of lag, so just hit him off.