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Has anyone seen a really good example of the new form of edge hogging in the new Super Smash Bros.? While it's no longer an instant KO, from what I can tell, it seems quite viable still to controlling your opponent, but yet I cannot really find any videos with players using it.
From what I understand, essentially how you would use it is, when your opponent hits the edge, you will immediately jump onto the edge they are grabbing, popping them off. When an opponent is popped off, technically the new person on the edge can follow with a Dair or Bair. An Uair could serve useful too if the opponent decides to go over you and get back onto the stage itself. The limitations of this system are very vague though, and hardly any examples exist of it.
This is what I've found so far... If anyone else has any other examples of it, please post them.
My current position is that edge trumping may be useful for unique match ups / situations. At the very least, it will "reset" the edge game, which is useful for keeping the pressure up. Especially for characters with weaker air games.
Ok, here's what I was able to piece together from grand finals. Data is approximate. 60 fps assumed. (Looked at youtube clip frame by frame using rowvid, rounded to nearest whole frame)
Note: Recovery frames are typically used to define frames of an attack action that occur after the hit boxes disappear, but before more commands can be input. I am using it as a blanket term for when commands cannot be input as part of any action.
ZSS - Edge Grabs
0.26 seconds -> 16 frames
7:32
Kirby F-tils Zamus. She freefalls directly into an edge grab.
Ledge Jumps.
No noticeable pause.
0.08 seconds -> 5 frames
6:43
Zamus is recovering and tethers the edge.
She swings down and seemingly instantly goes into a ledge jump.
Perhaps your ledge commands can be entered while tethered?
0.04 seconds -> 2 frames
6:32
Zamus is recovering and tethers the edge.
She swings down and seemingly instantly goes into a ledge attack.
Evidence for ledge commands input while tethered
0.60 seconds -> 36 frames
1:20
Kirby f-tils Zamus away from the edge, Zamus ^Bs to edge.
Ledge attacks.
Small pause
0.36 seconds -> 22 frames
0:02
Zamus retreats from Kirby to force sudden death. Falls onto edge.
Ledge drops.
Potentially a pause here.
Kirby - Edge Grabs
0.81 seconds -> 49 frames
5:57
Kirby recovering with air jumps grabs onto ledge.
Ledge drop
Noticeable pause
0.50 seconds -> 30 frames
3:00
Kirby avoids Zamus above stage and falls onto ledge.
Ledge jump
Seems like there is a small pause
0.20 seconds -> 12 frames
2:13
Kirby recovering with ^B.
Ledge Jump
No noticeable pause.
0.48 seconds -> 29 frames
1:56
Kirby avoids Zamus above stage and recovers onto ledge.
Ledge drop.
Feels like a pause here.
0.26 seconds -> 16 frames
1:34
Kirby avoids Zamus above stage and air jumps to ledge.
Ledge drop.
No noticeable pause.
Personal interpretation of data and questions in response to it:
Ledge commands can be input while tethered for auto-execution at edge grab.
Is the swing from tether recovery a constant?
What if you input commands at different times?
Are tether recoveries identical?
Do tether recoveries edge trump?
Can you trump a tether?
The minimum time appears to be in the neighborhood of 12 frames. I believe there are recovery frames and that this is a good approximation of their duration. Assuming that this is correct.
Can a player be trumped during their invincibility?
Can a player be trumped during their 12 recovery frames?
When I get a chance, I will analyze trumping for similar data. As I previously suggested, I believe that a possible safe option to edge guard with is edge trumping. It is reliant on trumping to have a lengthy duration of recovery frames. You will need a trumped enemy to be in recovery frames for the 12 frames of your edge grab plus any additional time to reclaim the edge or use an attack.
Currently my stance on Edge Trumping being used as a competitive tactic is.......
Timed from the edge grab until what I thought was falling animation, I could be wrong. YOU DO IT BETTER THEN.
Mario Trumped
0.52 seconds -> 31 frames
Double Jump +10 frames
Villager Trumped
0.44 seconds -> 26 frames
Double Jump +24 frames
Mario Trumped
0.48 seconds -> 29 frames
Double Jump +31 frames
Villager Trumped
0.52 seconds -> 31 frames
Double jump +10 frames
Pit
0.52 seconds -> 31 frames
Double jump +5 frames
So, the treehouse members probably weren't attempting to play optimally, as they were showing off the mechanic. What would be a reasonable assumption? I think that 0.4 seconds is reasonable. (For easy math, as edge grab is 0.2)
So, you would have 12 frames (1/5th of a second) to land an attack or reclaim stage position. Sounds reasonable. Kirby's ledge jump -> double jump on the third edge grab is 0.28 seconds or 17 frames. I think this is about as close as I can look without reviewing the game myself to find the most optimal course of action to take in the situation.
Umm... I'm not too sure if I completely understood all of that, but I gather that you are saying there is a 0.5 second approximate time period where the edge cannot be grabbed by another, when another person just took it...?
Until I completely understand the mechanic, with Brawl anyhow, I'm going to improve my off-stage game, avoiding edge hogs for edge guarding/aggressive off stage play... That I know is still mostly the same.
The Treehouse demo is pretty much the clearest example out there I think. Personally I think it's a great change. If there's one thing I hate in Melee it's anti-climactic edge hogs ending otherwise great sets.
Umm... I'm not too sure if I completely understood all of that, but I gather that you are saying there is a 0.5 second approximate time period where the edge cannot be grabbed by another, when another person just took it...?
Until I completely understand the mechanic, with Brawl anyhow, I'm going to improve my off-stage game, avoiding edge hogs for edge guarding/aggressive off stage play... That I know is still mostly the same.
There appears to be a time after grabbing the edge, that you cannot perform an action. If you want to edge trump someone, it will have to be during those recovery frames or else they will just drop off the ledge before you get there (potentially edge trumping you!) The timing required on this appears to be approximately 1/5th of a second (or 12 frames.)
Once again, data is approximate, as I was using frame by frame analysis of youtube that isn't 60fps and it was challenging to figure out exactly when recovery frames were over and relied on the input of other moves.
So, let's say you nail down the first prerequisite of edge trumping consistently. Can it be punished? My answer currently is "maybe." My favorite nominee for it right now is Sheik. (Legs for DAYS) She seems like she is fast enough and has a long enough bair to MAYBE place it in the area of the ending of an edge trump.
The problem here is that the period of time where you cannot perform actions on a ledge trump APPEARS to be 2/5ths of a second (or 24 frames).
tl:dr;
If you edge trump someone, you will have approximately 1/5th of a second to either land an attack or put yourself into a better position (reclaim the stage.) This is not a lot of time but not an impossible amount of time. More data is required.
