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DWYP 2 Round 1 Tomkitty vs Peeze: Gay Marriage: Should it be Legal?

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Tom

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I am posting the thread this afternoon, because Peeze said that he would not be able to access SWF until tonight and I could choose the topic. I chose Gay Marriage.

I will present the affirmative argument (Pro-Gay Marriage) and make the first post tonight. Thank you.

(this post was edited to fix the title, and will not be used to argue any point)
 

Tom

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Our honorable and benevolent judges decided to categorize the debate over gay marriage as a social issue, but I must affirm the stance that it is more of a moral issue. It is upsetting to say that the majority of the opposition of same-sex marriage falls under the moral category, and their reasoning often stems from their religious beliefs or upbringing. (3) For the sake of a proper debate, I will address both social and moral reasonings and opinions behind support for gay marriage, and I will dispel improper arguments against gay marriage. My argument will clearly move from the social to the moral issues at hand.

Before I begin, it is important to recognize the Catch-22 argument that comes into play during the debate over gay marriage. You cannot legitimately argue against the rights of gays to marry on the basis of the definition of 'marriage.' The cultural definition of marriage, taken from the American Heritage Dictionary, begins with "the legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife." If only debate were that simple. As the affirmative argument, I must iterate that the goal of gay marriage would change the cultural definition of marriage, and citing the cultural definition of marriage as evidence against gay marriage is simply fallacious opposition to change. Simply stated, if we are arguing that the definition needs to be changed, you cannot cite the definition as fact or as your argument. That is the Catch-22 which must be avoided by my opposition as long as they plan to hold a legitimate debate.

Without further ado, I begin socially, with our rights as citizens of the United States of America. The Declaration of Independence provides us with confirmation of our inalienable rights, "among these [being] Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Common acceptance of behavior is that as long as you do no harm to another, they should not be allowed to stop you from what you are doing. When applied to gay rights in laymen terms, 'we aren't forcing you to get a gay marriage. We are demanding our rights.' Thomas Jefferson's quintessential phrase, specifically the "Pursuit of Happiness," is extremely relevant to any argument over marriage -- for example, we look to Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967). The ruling of this specific Supreme Court case overturned the so-called "Racial Integrity Act of 1924" on the basis that anti-miscegenation (or opposition to marriage between two races, ex. a black man and a white woman) is unconstitutional. Chief Justice Earl Warren wrote that, "The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men." Interracial marriages harmed no-one, but were unjustly deemed illegal. The court corrected this egregious mistake. Homosexual marriages harm no-one, but are unjustly deemed illegal. The court has yet to correct this mistake, which is without a doubt on par with its former counterpart. To reiterate, individual opinion has no bearing on another's rights; you cannot tell another man how to live his life if his lifestyle does not harm or affect you.

Making a transition from the social to the moral issues, it is the duty of the American government to decide whether homosexuality is immoral. No religion or religious text can be cited as evidence that gay Americans should not be allowed to marry. I have yet to hear a non-religious stance that argues the immorality of homosexuality. If one cannot be found, then it is apparent that gay individuals should be allowed to marry. Stripped of its religious context, a marriage is a contract. Two adults, of any sexual orientation, can buy a home. Two adults, of any sexual orientation, can contract a lawyer. Two adults, of any sexual orientation, can enter a contract. There is no legal reasoning that two adults, of any sexual orientation, cannot marry.

In the majority of the United States of America, homosexual couples have the right to enter a civil union. This contract permits them victim's and worker's compensation related to their spouse, use of laws prohibiting discrimination based on marital status, and the ability to make medical decisions for their incapacitated partner, among other benefits. However, federal rights not covered by civil unions include immigration rights, the collection of benefits upon the death of a spouse via social security, and the ability to file their taxes jointly as a married couple, among other benefits. There is no reason for gay couples to be denied these benefits by simply settling for a civil union to 'protect the sanctity of marriage.'

In conclusion, I would like to simply dispel more common illogical arguments against gay marriage. The first is that the government simply cannot allow gay marriage. The California Supreme Court has made movements to strike down their state's ban on same-sex marriage, stating that sexual orientation, like race or gender, "does not constitute a legitimate basis upon which to deny or withhold legal rights." The second is that gay marriage is simply crazy. It is incorrect to state that homosexuality is a form of mental illness that can be 'cured;' the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from its list of official mental illnesses in 1973, and the American Psychological Association did the same in 1974.

I present my argument as such, and I am prepared to debate the points I have made and the points that my opposition will make. Thank you.

---

Sources:
http://www.speakout.com/activism/gayrights/
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/05/15/same.sex.marriage/
(3) http://www.dosomething.org/tipsheet/gay_rights_facts
http://www.gayfamilysupport.com/homosexuality-facts.html

(If a quotation has been made and the source is not found in this list, then the source has been outrightly stated in the argument. This includes the Declaration of Independence and decisions made by the Supreme Court of the United States of America, and the dictionary.)
 

Peeze

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Wow Tomkitty has me beat already. Why'd i let you pick the topic? I would forfeit now seriously, but i have to give it a shot.

To address your first argument i dont see the catch-22 here. Remember a catch 22 is a false dilemma, or better yet as the dictionary defines it: A situation in which a desired outcome or solution is impossible to attain because of a set of inherently illogical rules or conditions. an example being:
Either the nobles of this country appear wealthy, in which case they can be taxed for good; or they appear poor, in which case they are living frugally and must have immense savings, which can be taxed for good."
I think the word you were looking for is paradox or contradictory, but this isnt an debate over semantics.
However, there is no contradiction in the dictionary definition of marriage. As you yourself stated it is a "contract or an agreement between a man and a woman". The word marriage simply does not apply between 2 men or 2 women. Maybe "union" or "bond" but this is a debate about marriage. Civil bonds exist as is.

To reiterate, individual opinion has no bearing on another's rights; you cannot tell another man how to live his life if his lifestyle does not harm or affect you.
I find this statement unsettling, because i am prohibited by the law to buy sex from a hooker, yet it hurts no one. I have yet to hear a non-religious stance that argues the immorality of prostitution Engaging in that kind of sexual promiscuity has a higher risk of contracting a std? So does gay marriage. I am prohibited by law to allow my 20 year old son to drink in my home, yet it harms no one. Opinion has a huge bearing. You said yourself gays want to change the view of marriage? To what? To what they think it is their opinion. Remeber most laws are passed or thrown away based on public opinion.

Think too about the repurcussions of legalizing gay marriage. A recent NYtimes poll said 61% were opposed to gay marriage. And I'm sure you agree a country divided couldnt stand. Remember one role of the government is not to appease the few, but the masses, as well as to keep peace. Think about the unrest that existed in Ireland because one half of the country wanted to be catholic, and the other half protestant.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is this: marriage(as you yourself defined it) is between a man and a woman. Gays are not prohibited the right to date or engage in same sex union. Many gays are happy living in a union like this as are many heterosexuals. Changing the law on gay marriage would mean changing the meaning of the word marriage itself. But then it wouldnt be marriage would it?

And just to throw in another source:
Practical Gastroenterology ran a series of articles on diseases caused by homosexuality. Hepatitis simplex, liver infections, gonorrhea, syphilis, parasitic infections, small-bowel lymphoma, Kaposi’s sarcoma, and, of course, the dreadful AIDS—these are just a few of the diseases considered in its issues of July/August and September/October 1985.

This is seriously hard to do without citing religious reasons. Oh and i didnt really like your sources because they aren't nuetral opinions so much as they are leanings toward legalizing gay marriage.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/19/opinion/polls/main589551.shtml
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Relationships/same_sex_marriage_poll_040121.html
 

Tom

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(I apologize for the long wait between my posts; last week was unexpectedly hectic and I was not able to access the internet for a few good days. We should still be able to continue a debate of respectable length.)

To address your first argument i dont see the catch-22 here. Remember a catch 22 is a false dilemma, or better yet as the dictionary defines it: A situation in which a desired outcome or solution is impossible to attain because of a set of inherently illogical rules or conditions. an example being:
Either the nobles of this country appear wealthy, in which case they can be taxed for good; or they appear poor, in which case they are living frugally and must have immense savings, which can be taxed for good."
I think the word you were looking for is paradox or contradictory, but this isnt an debate over semantics.
However, there is no contradiction in the dictionary definition of marriage. As you yourself stated it is a "contract or an agreement between a man and a woman". The word marriage simply does not apply between 2 men or 2 women. Maybe "union" or "bond" but this is a debate about marriage. Civil bonds exist as is.
I'm sorry, but whatever you want to call the Catch-22, you still have not acknowledged it as legitimate in your argument. I stated that you cannot use the argument that "marriage is not for 2 men or 2 women" because the debate is over whether or not marriage should include homosexual relationships, but you still used it as one of your arguments. I do not feel that I even have to address this argument further that what has been said.

I find this statement unsettling, because i am prohibited by the law to buy sex from a hooker, yet it hurts no one. I have yet to hear a non-religious stance that argues the immorality of prostitution Engaging in that kind of sexual promiscuity has a higher risk of contracting a std? So does gay marriage. I am prohibited by law to allow my 20 year old son to drink in my home, yet it harms no one. Opinion has a huge bearing. You said yourself gays want to change the view of marriage? To what? To what they think it is their opinion. Remeber most laws are passed or thrown away based on public opinion.
Hiring a prostitute presents sexual promiscuity. Said sexual promiscuity can result in sexually transmitted diseases due to contact with multiple partners. Homosexual sex with your partner to whom you are married is not sexual promiscuity. You have presented an improper comparison.

The laws against underage alcohol consumption have no bearing over a homosexual couple's right to marriage. Arguing for the laws pertaining to the proper age of alcohol consumption accomplishes a point separate than the one being presently debated, and I am comfortable in saying that continuing their mention would only set up a strawman.

Public opinions do not trump civil rights.

Think too about the repurcussions of legalizing gay marriage. A recent NYtimes poll said 61% were opposed to gay marriage. And I'm sure you agree a country divided couldnt stand. Remember one role of the government is not to appease the few, but the masses, as well as to keep peace. Think about the unrest that existed in Ireland because one half of the country wanted to be catholic, and the other half protestant.
By the repercussions of legalizing gay marriage, you mean the public opinion over the issue. While it is upsetting that a national poll said that the majority of US citizens were against gay marriage, there is strong precedence, if not the strongest precedence there can be, towards the government making strides towards equality against the national opinion -- the federal government had to force integration between the races after a successful civil rights movement.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is this: marriage(as you yourself defined it) is between a man and a woman. Gays are not prohibited the right to date or engage in same sex union. Many gays are happy living in a union like this as are many heterosexuals. Changing the law on gay marriage would mean changing the meaning of the word marriage itself. But then it wouldnt be marriage would it?
The argument against gay marriage citing the definition of marriage is null, as addressed by the Catch-22 in the first post. Also, although you state that many gays are "happy living in a union," I'm sure you don't mean to imply that they would be against more rights?
 

Peeze

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(I apologize for the long wait between my posts; last week was unexpectedly hectic and I was not able to access the internet for a few good days. We should still be able to continue a debate of respectable length.)
Good to see you back.

I'm sorry, but whatever you want to call the Catch-22, you still have not acknowledged it as legitimate in your argument. I stated that you cannot use the argument that "marriage is not for 2 men or 2 women" because the debate is over whether or not marriage should include homosexual relationships, but you still used it as one of your arguments. I do not feel that I even have to address this argument further that what has been said.
I understand now what your talking about. it didnt make sense to me until this post.



Hiring a prostitute presents sexual promiscuity. Said sexual promiscuity can result in sexually transmitted diseases due to contact with multiple partners. Homosexual sex with your partner to whom you are married is not sexual promiscuity. You have presented an improper comparison.
Its not an improper comparison. The point i was making was that you cant use the argument "you cant tell me what i do in the privacy of my home as long as it doesnt hurt anyone", because if i give my 20 year old son alcohol, or hire a hooker im not hurting anyone, yet there are still laws prohibiting it.

Public opinions do not trump civil rights.



By the repercussions of legalizing gay marriage, you mean the public opinion over the issue. While it is upsetting that a national poll said that the majority of US citizens were against gay marriage, there is strong precedence, if not the strongest precedence there can be, towards the government making strides towards equality against the national opinion -- the federal government had to force integration between the races after a successful civil rights movement.

By repurcussions i mean repurcussions.
You cant seriously be comparing this to the civil rights movement can you? Blacks were killed, beaten, unfairly segregated, given substandard living and food. I dont see that happening to gays. Gays are not oppressed like that. They are allowed to date, live together in civil unions, buy houses together. The government withholds marriage from gays because, catch22 or not, marriage is intended for two opposite sex people. This isnt a narrow minded view as most of the world view marriage as such. The issue of marriage is trivial compared to the civil rights movement.

If you legalize gay marriage, because it denies gays the right to be happy, well then whats to say polygamy shouldnt be legal? You have no right to object it then, since it hurts no one...But yet laws still exist against it. Why? Because it does not fit within the definition(legally and semantically(sp?)) of marriage.
 

Tom

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I think the threads close this weekend, so I am going to make a last post, and then hopefully you can get in the last word. If you respond to this, then I will let those points be the final ones. =)

Its not an improper comparison. The point i was making was that you cant use the argument "you cant tell me what i do in the privacy of my home as long as it doesnt hurt anyone", because if i give my 20 year old son alcohol, or hire a hooker im not hurting anyone, yet there are still laws prohibiting it.
It is still an improper comparison, because the laws prohibiting those acts aren't restricting the same civil liberties by restricting rights to different people because of who they are.

By repurcussions i mean repurcussions.
You cant seriously be comparing this to the civil rights movement can you? Blacks were killed, beaten, unfairly segregated, given substandard living and food. I dont see that happening to gays. Gays are not oppressed like that. They are allowed to date, live together in civil unions, buy houses together. The government withholds marriage from gays because, catch22 or not, marriage is intended for two opposite sex people. This isnt a narrow minded view as most of the world view marriage as such. The issue of marriage is trivial compared to the civil rights movement.
Gay people are slandered, spat at, called evil, and are the targets of fear based propaganda. The fact is that they are not given the same respect as same sex couples, nor are they given the same rights. They are allowed to date, to live together in civil unions, and to buy houses together, yes you are right about those. But tell me why they are not allowed the rest of the simple rights that straight couples are given?

Don't give me reasons why things are acceptable now. Give me reasons why they wouldn't be acceptable if gays had more rights.

If you legalize gay marriage, because it denies gays the right to be happy, well then whats to say polygamy shouldnt be legal? You have no right to object it then, since it hurts no one...But yet laws still exist against it. Why? Because it does not fit within the definition(legally and semantically(sp?)) of marriage.
I'm sorry, but I'm not objecting to polygamy.

I do hope that you are able to get the last word. If not, then the judges should take that into consideration, on Peeze's behalf.
 

Peeze

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I was able to log on for a second, but i wont be able to post a full fledged response till later tonight. Therefore could you judges postpone the judging for this debate until tonight? Thanks
 
D

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I don't see why not. Don't wait too much longer, though.

Good luck :)
 

Peeze

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I think the threads close this weekend, so I am going to make a last post, and then hopefully you can get in the last word. If you respond to this, then I will let those points be the final ones. =)
Thanks for the patience, its been a long weekend.

It is still an improper comparison, because the laws prohibiting those acts aren't restricting the same civil liberties by restricting rights to different people because of who they are.
Lets take your statement in its original context:
"you cannot tell another man how to live his life if his lifestyle does not harm or affect you."
Yes, actually the government can and does. the laws prohibiting allowing your 20 year old to drink in your home and hiring a prostitute prove that. Laws aren't "if it hurts other people then its illegal". Laws also uphold the society's moral code. "Huh" you say? Why are laws passed prohibiting child porn, or prohibiting swearing(in some public places), or disallowing minors from seeing renting R/M-rated material? Because society finds it moraaly reprehensible, thus my statement "public opinion greatly influences laws that are passed"
Simply put, the majority opinion in this country, does not disfavor gays, but gay marriage.

I think comparing gay marriage to the civil rights movement is inappropriate and trivializes the suffering of blacks. Does the fact that gays cant marry cause suffering or death or verbal abuse?

Good debate Tomkitty.Had fun :)
 

AltF4

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Tomkitty:

You came pretty strong right out of the gate and kept on the offensive the whole time. You had the point to prove and I felt like you did it very well. I wished the debate could have gone on a bit longer, but it was long enough for both for you to get your main points across.

A+



Peeze

Well, all but admitting defeat in your first post didn't help your case. It felt like you didn't really feel up to debating this topic, and were sort of scraping bottom trying to come up with things to say. In defending yourself from Tom's attacks, you tried to dissolve his analogy to the civil rights movement with great effort, but that wasn't the meat of his argument. Even if the analogy was poor, the argument as it was went uncontested.

Btw: Movie ratings are voluntary, there is no law that says 14 year olds can't see rated R movies. 1st amendment ftw.

B+
 
D

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Overview: Strong opinions on both sides lead to interesting debates, even if devil's advocate had to be played.

Tom: Your posts were intimidating to say the least. Very strong sourcing, very strong arguments, and very strong emotions. In fact, if there's one thing I can say I didn't like, it was the latter. Sure, it was pretty rare, but the changing of social - > moral issues felt really sensational and in my opinion detracted from your main points. Appeal to emotion, I would say. Nevertheless, you showed quite well that you're an excellent debater. A job very well done, and I hope to see another great debate come Round 2.

My verdict: A+


Peeze: You shouldn't give up so easily. Fight to the last post! Like Alt said, your analogies were weak to begin with, but don't let that discourage you. It's an incredibly difficult topic. This was my topic last DWYP, and if you want, you can compare my debate with yours and see some similar points, such as the slippery slope of:

if(gaymarriage=="legal")

{
FloodGatesOpen(polygamy,incest,bestiality);
}

Oh god did I just write that. Anyway, it's a really hard topic and I felt you gave it a pretty solid try, unfortunately, Tom's arguments were very hard to penetrate.

My verdict: B+
 
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