Donkey Kong Stage Discussion: Week #2 - Pokemon Stadium

[Riddle]

Donkey Kong Stage Discussion​

Hello, I'm Riddle and I am a Donkey Kong main just like all of you guys. In an effort to provide new players to Donkey Kong with more information on counterpicking and banning I made a thread to discuss all of the legal stages and how DK does on them. This includes strenghts and weaknesses for DK on these stages and also what characters to CP or ban it against.

Final Destination:

Final Destination gives several advantages to DK:

- Zero Deaths on the spacies.

This is obviously, because of the lack of platforms. However, Falco easily outcamps you on this level and Fox's incredible maneuverability and wave-shine combos and other factors do not make this a great counterpick against them.

- The lack of platforms make it easier for him to control space.

One of DK's major strengths is his long range and ability to zone agains prokectile-less opponents. This makes this a good level to counterpick against marth since your bair outranges his fair and your f-smash/giant punch outrange his aerials. On stages with more platforms faster characters can use platforms to their advantage to get inside of DK's comfort zone and combo really well.

- Relatively large blastzones help DK a lot.

Most of DK's kills come through edgeguarding (with some obvious exceptions) and DK is quite heavy and so with proper DI you can live a very, very long time on this stage. If you zone properly to avoid killing moves it will become quite hard to kill you without edgeguaring. This is especially helpful against Marth, because his killing options become quite predictable at higher percents.

Final Destinations disadvantages for DK:

- A large flat area gives Projectile spammers a huge advantage.

This is self-explanatory and is the main disadvantage for DK on this stage. DK is a big, slow character without a pojectile so he is very easy to outcamp on this level by characters with good projectiles. This includes Falco, the Links, Samus, Sheik, and Peach. Do not counterpick this level against characters that are likely to camp you heavily.

- DK is slow so faster more manuevarable characters can run circles around DK here.

Characters like Captain Falcon love big flat areas in which they can run around and occasionly throw out attacks which usually end up becoming huge combos that DK is very succeptible to. Don't counterpick this stage on characters like CF, because he will be able to bait you and combo you all day unless you are very very careful.

Characters to Counterpick FD against: Marth, Roy, Ganondorf, Samus, Luigi, Bowser
Characters to Ban FD against: Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, Falco

Week 2: Pokemon Stadium:

Discuss!

 

[Strong Badam]

Final Destination is a solid Donkey Kong stage. Of course, there are the obvious 0-deaths against spacies (though the stage isn't a good idea against Falco due to his lasers), but there are some other reasons why it's good for DK, too. The blastlines are relatively far off, so if you DI well you can live to pretty high percentages, while DK's killing ability isn't weakened much since most of it should be through edgeguarding (unless you're fighting someone like Peach or Jiggs, in which case you'd be CPing to Yoshi's Story or... maybe Green Greens). The stage gives Donkey Kong a flat area to space Bairs with, without platforms for quicker characters to take advantage of and get a positional advantage over Donkey Kong with, or to ruin his upward juggling combos.
I would still Counter-pick to a different level if I were against Fox (for sure) or (I think) Falcon, though, but I wouldn't mind if it came up on random.
That's about all I can think of at the moment, I might dig up some posts by MEXICAN or ask Bum on AIM if I feel like it.

 

[Riddle]

Here are my thoughts:

Final Destination gives several advantages to DK:

- Zero Deaths on the spacies.

This is obviously, because of the lack of platforms. However, Falco easily outcamps you on this level and Fox's incredible maneuverability and wave-shine combos and other factors do not make this a great counterpick against them.

- The lack of platforms make it easier for him to control space.

One of DK's major strengths is his long range and ability to zone agains prokectile-less opponents. This makes this a good level to counterpick against marth since your bair outranges his fair and your f-smash/giant punch outrange his aerials. On stages with more platforms faster characters can use platforms to their advantage to get inside of DK's comfort zone and combo really well.

- Relatively large blastzones help DK a lot.

Most of DK's kills come through edgeguarding (with some obvious exceptions) and DK is quite heavy and so with proper DI you can live a very, very long time on this stage. If you zone properly to avoid killing moves it will become quite hard to kill you without edgeguaring. This is especially helpful against Marth, because his killing options become quite predictable at higher percents.

Final Destinations disadvantages for DK:

- A large flat area gives Projectile spammers a huge advantage.

This is self-explanatory and is the main disadvantage for DK on this stage. DK is a big, slow character without a pojectile so he is very easy to outcamp on this level by characters with good projectiles. This includes Falco, the Links, Samus, Sheik, and Peach. Do not counterpick this level against characters that are likely to camp you heavily.

- DK is slow so faster more manuevarable characters can run circles around DK here.

Characters like Captain Falcon love big flat areas in which they can run around and occasionly throw out attacks which usually end up becoming huge combos that DK is very succeptible to. Don't counterpick this stage on characters like CF, because he will be able to bait you and combo you all day unless you are very very careful.

Characters to Counterpick FD against: Marth, Roy, Ganondorf, Samus, Luigi, Bowser
Characters to Ban FD against: Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, Falco

 

[Strong Badam]

lol, your post was basically the same as mine. D:

this is all IMO, since stage choice is dependent on what stages you're comfortable with while still playing to your character's strengths. Counterpick stage choices should also take into account why you feel you lost the previous game; try to weaken that strategy or strengthen a counter-strategy with your stage choice.

Characters to CP FD against: Marth, Roy, Link (not the best stage vs. link tho, this is like 2nd or 3rd choice), Ganondorf, Samus (taking away platforms helps you with her missile stuffs.... I wish I had more Samus experience to say more on the subject), Luigi? (Platform wavelanding always annoys me.... more of a personal preference thing I suppose), Bowser (as if you'll be losing to a Bowser.... <_<)...
FD vs. Captain Falcon isn't really all that bad if you can DI pretty well, since it'll require reading from your opponent. the stage lets DK do his up-air juggles without interruption past around 18% damage (more due to Falcon's hitstun properties, but yeah). I'm really not sure whether I'd ban it, but I wouldn't CP it, since Brinstar and Jungle Japes are both better.
Characters to ban FD against: Captain Falcon (Unless you don't like Yoshi's Story's close blast-lines for whatever reason; like I said, stage choice is based on preference. I'll likely play Darkrain tomorrow, so I'll test some different stages out if he's up for it :o), Falco (lasers.... if your opponent is stupid enough to instant-ban FD when he sees you pick DK then gooood ****, you get to ban Battlefield/FoD/Yoshi's Story depending on preference too), Ice Climbers (FD is an all-around solid IC stage. I know from personal experience that against just about any character a good IC's will CP to FD, since platforms tend to mess with Nana/Popo's grab stuff)... I can't really think of any other characters to ban FD against, so I hope that's good =P

 

[King Kong]

Im gonna play the devils advocate here and disagree with you both. I honestly think that this is one of the better stages against fox/falco.

It basically comes down to a tradeoff. Fox and Falco, as you both mentioned, have an increased ability to spam lasers/camp you on this level.

DK on the other hand has massive combo and kill potential from grabs on this level. If you're getting your combos off consistantly Fox/Falco should be dead after 1-2 grabs per stock, which is achievable provided that you are somewhate able to read through your opponents camping.

At lower percents you have chain grabs into U-airs/B-airs/F-airs for at least 50-60%. From there on I love being able to U-throw into giant punch or Up-B at lower percents and U-throw into U-smash at high percents for the kill (Which is great on this level cos there are no platforms for them to tech on).

Of course getting the grabs off in the first place is never easy. But DK relies heavily on his grab combos to beat the space animals on any stage, and I have always found that this level really enhances that aspect of DK's gameplay.

I totally agree that this stage is great against Marth, I remember playing friendlies against Ken a couple of years back and getting a couple 0-deaths off on his Marth on FD. I also like it against Peach as you can survive for a very long time against her on FD with good DI.

How about Sheik? Im gonna say that FD is a viable option against her. She doesnt really gain anything here (In PAL anyways, I dont know how her downthrow would affect this matchup in NTSC) in terms of techchasing or combos and you can outrange/outspace her since she cant use platforms (or platform needles) to set up for aerials.

peace out

 

[Strong Badam]

FD is a viable counterpick against Fox. The problem I see with it is that nowadays, most Foxes shouldn't be getting grabbed very often, so your 0-death combos might only happen once or twice in a game, which the Fox can make up for by being gay.
I've spoken to Bum and him and I agree that Jungle Japes and Brinstar are both better CP's against Fox, though. DK doesn't "rely heavily on his grab combos," because otherwise he would be bottom tier... lol. His back-air rules and his edgeguarding against spacies is what gives him a chance, not the 0-death combos. CPing Falco to FD is like a death sentence, though, unless you know for sure that they won't laser spam. CPs for Falco really depend on playstyle, but I would definitely not take a Falco there in tournament.

I wouldn't suggest FD vs. Sheik in NTSC because her tech-chasing is really icky there, and you have like nowhere to go. I prefer stages like Yoshi's Story or Brinstar where I can control space with back-air, and Brinstar's acid can help me get out of lame tech-chases.
like I said in my previous post, it has a lot to do with personal preference.

also, if you're 0-deathing a Marth on any stage.... something is really wrong.

 

[Riddle]

You should really not be grabbing a high level spacie very much at all. Shield grabs will never happen, because of their shines and most of the time they keep out of the way with spamming and their stupid combos >.>. The only situation in which you should expect a grab is bad spacing or a missed L-cancel, neither of which are going to happen often against a pro and are never going to happen against someone like M2K.

As SB said, you should never rely on grab combos/cg's against the spacies. I repeat, you will not get grabs against top level foxes or falcos.

I also disagree with CP'ing Peach here. You might live a long time, but Peach will live a really long time. Pick somewhere with smaller blastzones.

Sheik in NTSC controls space way too well on FD. She has no trouble getting grabs and can tech chase you a ton and she doesnt care about the large blastzones, because she edgeguards you quite well.

Btw sorry SB, I didn't really have time to read your post before I posted my first one, so it was kind of accidental that we said the same things. Great minds think alike?

 

[King Kong]

also, if you're 0-deathing a Marth on any stage.... something is really wrong.

Really? I know Ken has great DI and wasnt sandbagging me all that hard (maybe he was, who really knows ) . It mostly came from grab/u-air/b-air/b-air offstage or drop/Up-B gimp sort of combos. I dont find marth especially hard to gimp or combo.

And if you're not relying on DK's combo/kill potential on spacies, what exactly is it that you're relying on? His amazing approach game? B-air spam?

It just seems that the argument of "you will never grab a high level fox/falco like M2K" seems inherently flawed. Of course you cant just expect to be pulling of shield grabs, thats a given against any character. Against a player of SIMILAR SKILL, you should be able to predict/set up enough grabs to make a decent game of it, even against the spacies.

I suppose the point im arguing for is that grabs are an integral part of DK's game, and should play a large role in the overall balance of his metagame, im not saying that you can just run around spamming grabs, but to expect to never be able to grab your opponent seems slightly defeatist to me

You do make a valid point when you say that peach will live for a very long tiem on FD. I suppose its just my playstyle, i dont mind playing a war of attrition with peach. But I can see why it may be a bad choice at times.

peace out

 

[Riddle]

Really? I know Ken has great DI and wasnt sandbagging me all that hard (maybe he was, who really knows ) . It mostly came from grab/u-air/b-air/b-air offstage or drop/Up-B gimp sort of combos. I dont find marth especially hard to gimp or combo.

You really shouldn't rely on combos like that. Good Marths are really hard to get grabs on (I'm suprised you got any grabs at all on Ken). And those combos are unreliable and probably the result of bad DI. Good job though.

And if you're not relying on DK's combo/kill potential on spacies, what exactly is it that you're relying on? His amazing approach game? B-air spam?

You should be relying on DK's combo/kill potential just not out of grabs. You will get some grabs, but you shouldn't rely on them. Edgeguarding is the best way to kill spacies anyways.

It just seems that the argument of "you will never grab a high level fox/falco like M2K" seems inherently flawed. Of course you cant just expect to be pulling of shield grabs, thats a given against any character. Against a player of SIMILAR SKILL, you should be able to predict/set up enough grabs to make a decent game of it, even against the spacies.

I'm not saying you will never get any grabs off of a high level fox/falco. however, you are pretty screwed if you rely on them. By all means, take any grab oppurtunities you get, but grabs shouldn't be the most important part of your game.

I suppose the point im arguing for is that grabs are an integral part of DK's game, and should play a large role in the overall balance of his metagame, im not saying that you can just run around spamming grabs, but to expect to never be able to grab your opponent seems slightly defeatist to me

I'm going to compare DK to the Ice Climbers right here. For both characters grabs are a very important part of the game, but you have to know how to play without grabs to succeed. Getting grabs is a rarity and when you do get them you should know how to capitalize, but you also have to know how to play when they aren't letting you get grabs.

You do make a valid point when you say that peach will live for a very long tiem on FD. I suppose its just my playstyle, i dont mind playing a war of attrition with peach. But I can see why it may be a bad choice at times.

peace out

Yeah, try to pick a stage with smaller blastzones, because Peach is going to live forever otherwise.

 

[Strong Badam]

Warning: Wall of text. Read it if you want some good (IMO) information though.... XD

Really? I know Ken has great DI and wasnt sandbagging me all that hard (maybe he was, who really knows ) . It mostly came from grab/u-air/b-air/b-air offstage or drop/Up-B gimp sort of combos. I dont find marth especially hard to gimp or combo.

I'd say that Ken had amazing survival DI, especially for his time. However, his combo DI wasn't all too impressive from what I remember of watching his sets with the likes of M2K/Azen/Chillen/Isai/etc, though I haven't seen them in a while since I don't use Marth so much anymore. The combo you describe doesn't sound like it would work, and would be more of a mindgamey/reading type of thing, especially since Marth's weight doesn't allow for amazingly awesome U-air combos. Bair -> Bair -> Up-b edgeguard sounds legit, though.

And if you're not relying on DK's combo/kill potential on spacies, what exactly is it that you're relying on? His amazing approach game? B-air spam?

It just seems that the argument of "you will never grab a high level fox/falco like M2K" seems inherently flawed. Of course you cant just expect to be pulling of shield grabs, thats a given against any character. Against a player of SIMILAR SKILL, you should be able to predict/set up enough grabs to make a decent game of it, even against the spacies.

I suppose the point im arguing for is that grabs are an integral part of DK's game, and should play a large role in the overall balance of his metagame, im not saying that you can just run around spamming grabs, but to expect to never be able to grab your opponent seems slightly defeatist to me

I'm not gonna lie, B-air is really a lot of DK's metagame, sadly. For example, match-ups against floaties/midweights become hell if you try to do just about anything BUT back-air and the occasional cargo upthrow -> upair/Giant Punch if you see the opportunity (of course, there are other things you can do, but the options and opportunities are few and far between), but are pretty even if you do just Back-air. Falcon is the same way; you have to apply pressure with back-air in order to get grabs (he's just so fast and you shouldn't be shieldgrabbing him much because good Falcon's don't hit shields much, and when they do, they know how to apply enough shield pressure to escape. Not to mention that DK has a terrible shield) and then juggle combo.
Also, a lot of DK's kills against Spacies should probably be from edge-guarding, to be honest, rather than building up damage w/ combos and then b-air/fair/giant punch/standing up-b for the kill. Off-stage bairs, dtilting illusions, and off-stage Spinning Kong are really awesome for edgeguarding spacies. I don't know why I didn't implement those into my game until recently/against Mango XD. I wish I had...

It is. I don't particularly like the argument, since it's exaggerated (everyone makes mistakes, otherwise the Fox-IC's matchup would be 100:0 on the notion that IC's will never ever get a grab with Nana in tow in Super Theory Bros.), but it does hold some truth. Foxes nowadays usually have a basic level of technical skill, and just about every one of their approaches can be shined out of to avoid a shield grab. Even mediocre Foxes I play can do that, and don't even get me started on my experience vs. Mango/Cactuar/Kels' Foxes. It seems like Foxes don't even have to know the match-up that well like they did a few years ago, since they can just tech-skill spam and get away with it pretty easily (at least in comparison to some other characters).
Grabbing Falco has always been a problem, since DK can hardly approach him or make him approach, and his shield pressure is ridiculously good even with sloppy technical skill.
In short, yes, DK's grab combos against fast fallers should be mastered and used whenever possible. However, it is definitely worth stating and knowing that DK shouldn't expect to get 4 grabs in against a good spacey on FD in any given match, and I haven't seen a DK player yet (aside from perhaps Nedech [haven't seen enough of him vs. spacies on FD lol] and Mew2King... he's inhuman XD) able to 0-death without fail every single time they get a grab with a punch stored, or even without one (fair/bair -> edgeguard? depends.). Not to mention, that Falco doesn't even have to approach you much in order to win unless you're really good at powershielding (Very difficult for DK due to his bad shield. I'm trying to learn to do this, because it'd greatly improve my game vs. Falco, which is of course DK's worst match-up. Bum said that I pretty much have to learn it XD) due to his lasers. D:

That being said, it could just be the American metagame vs. Australia's or PAL in general's metagame, and spacies are played a lot differently simply due to regional or social differences. I know that Calle W's Falco plays a hell of a lot differently than say DaShizWiz, Zhu, Forward, Lambchops, or Mango's Falco's. Not to mention, DK's match-up vs. just about any character is a lot better in PAL since DK wasn't nerfed at all (he was actually buffed; in NTSC, if you get hit during your up-b, you lose any stored charges on your Giant Punch, no matter how many. Same goes for Samus, but she doesn't really get hurt much from it due to her generally more difficult to edge-guard up-b because of its priority. PAL however, fixed this annoying glitch ;_ and most of his more difficult match-ups have been nerfed. Fox's up-air and up-smash have been nerfed (not sure about his up-air but upsmash for sure) and his up-b goes a shorter distance. Marth's dair can be meteor-canceled, which would help DK a lot IMO since dair spikes is a lot of why I lose against random Marth's D:. Sheik's down-throw is worse for tech-chasing. Falco's dair lasts for less time, which I guess shouldn't be a problem if the Falco is timing things right, but it's worth mentioning. Ganondorf's fair is weaker I think..... that's about all I know lol.

You do make a valid point when you say that peach will live for a very long tiem on FD. I suppose its just my playstyle, i dont mind playing a war of attrition with peach. But I can see why it may be a bad choice at times.

Like I said earlier, a lot of stage-choice is very dependent on play-style of both you and your opponent, and why you feel you lost to have to counter-pick a stage to begin with. I also think that the PAL ruleset has less stages to choose from IIRC (like I think Yoshi's Story is actually a Counter-pick rather than a neutral? I don't remember), or something like that. Also, like I said earlier, the metagame in your country/game version is probably extremely different than in America/Canada, which could be contributing to your differing opinions.
No one's right or wrong in their counter-pick choices. If FD vs. Peach works great for you, then I don't really see any problem with you choosing it. I'm just saying what stages I would pick, and giving some general reasons based on DK's/his opponent's strengths and weaknesses in different match-ups. To paraphrase UmbreonMow for the purpose of character discussion:

In debates, there are no enemies here. When making your points, you are making them to friends to arrive at the best possible conclusion rather than the one that benefits you on a micro level. Debates are truly working with the opposing side, not against them.

I'm also glad that you have decided to take part in some of these DK discussions, King Kong. I'd like to get some opinions from other DK players/players from other countries and learn more about different playstyles and metagames. ^_^

 

[King Kong]

Warning: Wall of text. Read it if you want some good (IMO) information though.... XD

I'd say that Ken had amazing survival DI, especially for his time. However, his combo DI wasn't all too impressive from what I remember of watching his sets with the likes of M2K/Azen/Chillen/Isai/etc, though I haven't seen them in a while since I don't use Marth so much anymore. The combo you describe doesn't sound like it would work, and would be more of a mindgamey/reading type of thing

Oh yeah, it was all about reading his reactions. Its all about finding the right moment to B-air him out of his jump or B-air through his aerial once he's above you then following it up offstage. I dont think there are any guaranteed 0-deaths on Marths, but DK is well equiped to do it with a bit of reading/luck.

And yeah, PAL does change the metagame slightly, as in the high tiers get a bit toned down allowing low tiered characters a bit more of chance, but its more or less the same.

And also, Australias metagame is a fair bit behind the rest of the worlds at the moment, so you'll have to excuse me if I sound a little bit archaic with my arguments. Our scene really tapered off last year and many people (myself included) pretty much dropped out of the scene. But its been slowly coming back this year, and so I figured I 'd get back into the board discussions and whatnot again.

I do agree with the points that you both made, looking forwards to more debating.

peace out

 

[Riddle]

new stage up!

 

[Strong Badam]

stadium is a decently good stage. I don't really have much to say about it. The only reason you should CP Stadium is if you're Fox, or if you feel comfortable on the stage and don't care so much about getting an advantage from the stage.

nothing particular about it aside from the transformations. you can FSmash off of some of the palatforms during the earth transformation, and the tree in the fire transformation is a pretty good place to be IMO because of upair and bair. watch out of gayness on the transformations.

 

[Riddle]

Pokemon Stadium isn't really a bad stage for DK. It helps him with U-air juggling, but unfortunately all of the fastfallers are quite good on this stage. You might want to ban this vs. Fox and CF (this is probably their best stage against you), and Falco does well here, because of laser spamming so you shouldn't CP him here, but your ban should be on Final Destination.

The transformations are good for DK as SB said, unless you are fighting Fox and to some extent Falco, because they dominate on the transformations.

I'd say ban this against Fox and maybe CF if you aren't very comfortable with the stage. And CP this against characters you feel comfortable on this stage against. It's a good CP against Sheik as well.

 

[Strong Badam]

I wouldn't ban Stadium against many characters... MEXICAN actually CP's Stadium against Fox and Falco, and he's also been used to CP it against Falcon (though I saw more of FD against Falcon in his later tournaments). Stadium's a good stage and since it's a Neutral you should really be comfortable on it, no johns. It doesn't give DK any real advantages or disadvantages, and the transformations are temporary and have areas in them where DK isn't really at a disadvantage and can wait them out.
I don't like taking floaties (Jiggs/Peach/Samus specifically) here because of the blastlines, and would rather take them to FoD or Yoshi's Story.
I dunno, like I said, the only reason many people CP to Stadium is because they feel comfortable on the stage and don't care so much about getting a real advantage over their opponent there. PC Chris CP'd here all the time because he just likes the stage/it's good for spacies. PC Stadium all dai!!

 

[Cia]

I like DK on Stadium. The transformations don't really hinder him, and the normal stage is perfect for a lot of his set ups. Probably his best stage against Peach and Sheik.

 

[Strong Badam]

I prefer Yoshi's against Peach and Brinstar/Kongo Jungle against Sheik. Stadium can work against Peach though.

 

[Riddle]

I definitely like this against Sheik. Otherwise stadium is a pretty neutral stage for DK and its up to you if you ban/CP it.