Does Bowser have any good mu's?

[KinGly]

I'm a mario main who has no interest in playing bowser, nor do I have any friends who play bowser. That being said, I can't think of any matchups that bowser excels in. It seems like he's just combo food for everyone.

I noticed this when I got my freind to go bowser in doubles when he teamed with me at his first tourney, and it seemed everyone had 0-100 combos on him. It should be noted that he didn't do much outside of spam smash attacks, but it got me to thinking more about the characters viability.

I want someone to prove me wrong and show me that every character is viable in pm so I can be happy again :'(.

 

[KinGly]

I should note that I've never played a good bowser, so this isn't from experience, just analysis of the game itself and a few players I've seen in live streamed tourneys.

 

[FakeKraid]

Bowser has plenty of good matchups. He gets comboed pretty hard by everyone, yeah, but a good Bowser player doesn't get fazed by that. You can get a 60% combo on him and be no close to killing him because of his weight and zoning options, and he only needs three or four hits to catch right back up, and unlike Bowser his opponent is quite killable at 60%.

The real problem is that there aren't many good Bowser mains right now. I'm probably the best in MD/VA, but that's almost by default because the other two good ones (9k and C-Mart) don't go to tournaments even as often as I do, and I only go about once a month or so. There's a world of difference between someone who's trying to learn Bowser and someone who has been playing him since Day One of Melee and knows his matchups and meta-game.

Just off the top of my head, I would name Yoshi, DK, Jiggs, Roy, Marth, Ike, Fox, Falco, Ivy, Pikachu, Olimar, G&W, Snake, DeDeDe, Mario, Squirtle, Shiek, and Kirby as matchups that are either good or even enough that I would only lose to a better player than me, and sometimes not even then if I have novelty advantage. And even his bad matchups, like Captain Falcon, Pit, Zamus, and Charizard are winnable if you play safe and your opponent isn't familiar enough with the matchup to really take advantage of Bowser's weaknesses.

EDIT: for completeness' sake here's a list of matchups I feel Bowser has some disadvantage in, to the point of it being an uphill battle, in something resembling least bad to worst, and omitting matchups I have either never played at all or never played against a good player: Diddy, Toon Link, R.O.B., Charizard, Ness, Lucas, Lucario, Samus (maybe), Link, Pit, Zamus, Captain Falcon.

EDIT 2: The thing is, even in those matchups Bowser can quickly turn it around if his opponent makes a mistake because his punishment game is just that good. I've three-and-four stocked Captain Falcon players who have gotten sloppy against me because I routinely play against MD/VA's best CF main and have learned to recognize and exploit mistakes in that matchup.

 

[James N.]

Bowser can also take Mewtwo pretty well, just predict his teleports and do a down smash when he comes in on you to trap him. You remove a vital element of Mewtwo's playstyle by doing that. He can use the environment to his advantage very well thanks to his ledge attack and edgeguarding options. A good Bowser won't spam attacks though. He is easily punished for such behavior.

 

[KinGly]

Just off the top of my head, I would name Yoshi, DK, Jiggs, Roy, Marth, Ike, Fox, Falco, Ivy, Pikachu, Olimar, G&W, Snake, DeDeDe, Mario, Squirtle, Shiek, and Kirby as matchups that are either good or even enough that I would only lose to a better player than me, and sometimes not even then if I have novelty advantage.

I would think that the mario bowser mu is pretty advantageous to mario, but most of my knowledge is second hand information I gathered from the mario threads, not actual experience. And I feel that G&W is so similar to mario that the same could be said of him.

I just feel that the character has a lot of weaknesses. I think that one of the best buffs that bowser could get is something along the lines of luigis nair, a get out of combo free card.

Edit: here's the thread I'm referring to http://smashboards.com/threads/new-and-improved-mario-matchup-thread.356093/

Are there any vods of mario vs bowser that showcases bowsers strengths?

 

[FakeKraid]

I would think that the mario bowser mu is pretty advantageous to mario, but most of my knowledge is second hand information I gathered from the mario threads, not actual experience. And I feel that G&W is so similar to mario that the same could be said of him.

Both of those characters, in my experience, have a hard time getting in against a smart Bowser thanks to his long reach. Mario's fireballs can be a problem sometimes, but are negated by Bowser's crawl armor and can even be Power Shielded fairly easily, while G&W has no good way to approach or zone. Both characters can get some pretty gnarly combos against the Koopa King, but they also both die at low % thanks to their lighter weights and Bowser's superior edge-guarding options.

I just feel that the character has a lot of weaknesses. I think that one of the best buffs that bowser could get is something along the lines of luigis nair, a get out of combo free card.

On the ground he has Fortress and in the air he has nair, which makes up for Bowser's longer hitstun with armor frames and low startup lag.

I don't think Bowser has a favorable match against Mario in particular, but it is almost certainly even at worst. I've only ever lost to one Mario in tournament and he was the first Mario main I've played who made full use of fireball stalling and made no huge over-commitment errors, which makes almost any matchup hard on Bowser due to his heavy emphasis on punishing mistakes.

 

[KinGly]

Both of those characters, in my experience, have a hard time getting in against a smart Bowser thanks to his long reach. Mario's fireballs can be a problem sometimes, but are negated by Bowser's crawl armor and can even be Power Shielded fairly easily, while G&W has no good way to approach or zone. Both characters can get some pretty gnarly combos against the Koopa King, but they also both die at low % thanks to their lighter weights and Bowser's superior edge-guarding options.



On the ground he has Fortress and in the air he has nair, which makes up for Bowser's longer hitstun with armor frames and low startup lag.

I don't think Bowser has a favorable match against Mario in particular, but it is almost certainly even at worst. I've only ever lost to one Mario in tournament and he was the first Mario main I've played who made full use of fireball stalling and made no huge over-commitment errors, which makes almost any matchup hard on Bowser due to his have emphasis on punishing mistakes.

Alright, I'm getting to where I can see it now. Thanks for honestly answering my questions.

 

[Phaiyte]

Bowser can also take Mewtwo pretty well, just predict his teleports and do a down smash when he comes in on you to trap him. You remove a vital element of Mewtwo's playstyle by doing that. He can use the environment to his advantage very well thanks to his ledge attack and edgeguarding options. A good Bowser won't spam attacks though. He is easily punished for such behavior.

Emukiller only does that because he had no idea how unsafe that option really was until he got bopped. Now he doesn't do it nearly as much because he knows better.

 

[FakeKraid]

And since I genuinely want to see PM's meta-game evolve, I'll give you some advice on the Mario-Bowser matchup from my end.

Never, ever approach, no matter how tempting. You have a projectile, so at long range just spam it to force Bowser to initiate contact. When he gets to medium range slow down with that and focus on retreating low-commitment airs to bait an attack, then punish with a tilt or grab. Mario's biggest advantage in this match is that he's one of the few characters with a reliable kill-move setup on Bowser even at high %, namely dthrow to high-hitbox fair. Because of that you don't even need to worry about changing your setups or neutral game based on Bowser's damage. Your main focus should be on not overextending and getting punished, because a skilled Bowser can probably kill you with only two or three openings.

Basically, fight him exactly the way you would fight a final boss: be totally lame and exploit the matchup for all it's worth and you will have as good a chance as you can get.

 

[Shadow Huan]

all I know is that Falco spawns at kill percent lol

I have never gone to a project m tournament (might go to Guts) but I would say that Bowser does fairly well against most of the cast. the worst MU that I have played at casuals off the top of my head is zamus. I usually switch off to Mewtwo or Marth because the MU feels hopeless as Bowser, even on a small stage

 

[Frost | Odds]

Bowser tends to do well against slow characters that he can outspace, like Kirby, Jiggs, Wario. Otherwise it's more about how willing the other guy is to lame you out, and whether he has combo/kill setups that require zero commitment on his part (Falcon, Ivy, Mewtwo hose Bowser for this reason).

Also pretty sure MK can 0-death you off a grab every time, but most MKs play like idiots so who cares

 

[Brikmaethor]

Seconding that Bowser should die if Meta Knight gets a grab. Make some popcorn and start planning your next stock.

 

[Jacob29]

You really think Bowser has the advantage vs Marth? Hmm...

 

[FakeKraid]

Getting grabbed by MK is pretty bad, yeah. Good thing you can kill him on almost any stage at like 60% or that match would be really, really bad. As it is it's just tense and tricky and you have to play super-safe.

Marth is advantageous if and only if the Marth player doesn't have smart, Melee-vet recovery skills. If you can't gimp him it gets a lot harder because he has a slight advantage on-stage and can gimp you. It's not unwinnable even then, of course, but you have to adjust your playstyle accordingly.

 

[Jacob29]

I dont think it is unwinnable no.

But I was just surprised you thought Bowser might have an advantage against him when he is a character with a very large range grab against another character that likes to use strong oos options and crouching. Both are beaten by grabbing

 

[FakeKraid]

Eh, Marth's grabs aren't that dangerous to Bowser after a certain point if you DI intelligently. MK's dthrow leaves you with very limited options, all of which can be answered by a quick and skilled tech chase leading to tons of regrabs and potentially a gimp. Beyond low% chained fthrows leading to a possible tipper if you DI wrong Marth isn't quite so bad. You at least have options for getting away that will force the Marth to play head games with you and don't lead quite so often into long combos or gimps. It's dangerous, but not calamitous like getting grabbed by MK.

I mean, if you're getting grabbed constantly you're going to lose probably, but you can space Marth better than that if you know the matchup well enough. Marth is one of the few matches where getting a little aggressive can actually help, so long as you aren't setting yourself up for shield grabs all the time. A strong offense can reduce Marth's options and make him a bit easier to predict and manage.