Do you use a secondary?

[Rango the Mercenary]

Do you feel there are any characters that it feels necessary to use secondaries on?

Several months ago, I faced a Sheik player that forced me to use Mega Man. I also faced a Luigi that forced me into using Link. I worry about using secondaries since I'm not as skilled with them as I am with Ike. I feel like I'd kick myself in the ass if had the opportunity to use my main and pass it up with a hard loss.

Ike has received good buffs since then, but I have still suffered losses to Rosalina and Little Mac in tournaments (CEO). My secondaries are Mario and Link, and I feel the characters I'm most concerned about are Sheik, Little Mac, Rosalina, and at times, Mega Man. Do you ever feel the need to switch in tournaments or do you run the risk and go all-out with your main?

 

[GhostUrsa]

I don't use a secondary currently, but feel I probably will have something in the pocket to use once I've got him down inside-out. In my case, it has nothing to do with 'tournament viablilty' and everything to do with mind games. The more adaptable I am, the more likely I'll keep my opponent guessing and most likely make a mistake. Having a second character down would allow me to better assess whether to mix up my strategy during a Bo3 or Bo5, instead of only having the strategies available to Ike.

I'm not to the point where I'll be picking a Secondary yet, though. I feel Ike has too much for me to learn yet where complimenting my Ike style is a necessity.

The big thing to take away from this is that though you have an avatar on the screen, it is 'you' that your opponent is actually fighting and not your 'character'. Character loyalty for the sake of loyalty is a hurdle if your personal play style evolves where you need 2 characters to be at your fullest potential. The old adage "Jack of all trades, master of none" does come into play if you try to expand your style too much, but having one character to compliment your play if you feel your Ike skills aren't enough to cover 100% of your personal scenarios is a good thing to explore.

Who knows, maybe your search for a complete 2nd character will improve your Ike game to the point where you don't need that secondary anymore. (You pick up a new trick, and find a way to apply it to Ike possibly)

 

[Aquasition]

I have Shulk as a secondary, mainly due to similarities with Ike, as well as being my previous main. While there are a bunch of characters I don't consider either a main or a secondary, I do learn how to play as these characters anyways so I have an idea of what to do against them, or in the event that they'd perform better in a particular MU/situation. (Examples include Sheik, Falcon, Mega Man, Mario, etc.)

 

[Mario766]

Ike doesn't need a secondary. My secondary is Mario but he isn't tournament quality. Ike can fight everyone pretty decently so I don't see the need for a secondary.

 

[ChaikaBestGirl]

I play Ike as a main and use ZSS and Dark Pit as secondaries. I dont play them nearly as much as Ike but id say i could use the competitively

 

[doom dragon 105]

I have always felt that Pika is a good secondary for Ike. If you are having trouble with the speed of other characters than Pika helps.

 

[Ryusei the Falling Star]

I pilot Roy against a friend's Ryu. He likes to use his Focus Attack for mobility and such. A bunch of Roy's attacks are multi-hit, which knocks Ryu out of his super armor when using FA (Usmash, Nair, Blaze, multiple Jabs). Also, I like to think Blazer as counter to Ryu's Shoryuken; not equally, but close. Also, I like him because he's fast and mobile. Sometimes he's a good choice because I pilot Roy so differently than Ike that opponents can't adjust quickly.

I also pilot Link because of his strong projectile game and ability to take it to CQC if he needs to.

 

[Zatchiel]

Ike doesn't need a secondary. My secondary is Mario but he isn't tournament quality. Ike can fight everyone pretty decently so I don't see the need for a secondary.

I agree with this; I don't have a secondary whose sole purpose is to pick up on Ike's slack. He feels solid enough to me.

I have Shulk as a secondary, mainly due to similarities with Ike

Same here. I didn't think I would like Shulk coming into Smash 4. Though once I decided to pick him up, those similarities made him feel almost natural.

 

[Ryusei the Falling Star]

Ike doesn't need a secondary.

I think that this can be true. Piloted well, any character mastered enough should be able to fight any character. It's interesting that with such a low-tiered character I can fight pretty much on-par with my fellows and their higher-tier characters. Frustrating for them, satisfying for me.

I also think there's benefit to playing other characters as well. Sometimes it'll put you in a different headspace and you reconsider your methods with Ike. And sometimes it's nice to take a break from the uphill battle that is mastering the Radiant Hero.

EDIT: Verbiage

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Having very nearly taken a game off of Mr.R at CEO in a friendly set, I think anything is possible with Ike compared to several months ago. I still will train my secondaries just in case I need to.

I think my secondaries will be Mario, Roy, Link, and Shulk.

 

[Locke17]

Ike and Ness loyalist here, with some Greninja every now and then. Luckily Ike and Greninja are solid in this game now, and Ness is arguably a top tier character. Both characters allow me to space in this game and capitalize on throws. Although not sure if Ness is a good answer for Ike's bad matchups like Sheik and Sonic. Definitely not Rosalina lol. I don't think any of my most used characters are a decent answer against her.

 

[Trueblade]

Been considering a secondary for a while now. DK was the OG secondary back in the 3DS days and Pit seems like a decent enough choice to compliment my playstyle, but maybe not so much my character. Having two characters with overwhelmingly average matchups isn't too great.

Recently I've dabbled in a bit of Roy and Marth half for fun and half for a new perspective. I feel as though Marth's footsies game and Roy's all-or-nothing style could carry over some stuff that'll help me with Ike. Also, Lord Boys. The way I see it though is I've been running Solo Ike with no true secondaries and a bunch of tertiaries.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

So believe it or not, I'm using Rosalina lately. Take it from someone who has played her less than Shulk or Roy, and I'm having much more success using her. She has a disjoint, she maintains great spacing, and she can get away without worrying about hitlag. For some reason, I'm constantly getting punished with Shulk and Roy, and the latter has bad recovery.

I don't feel it has anything to do with tiers, either. Rosalina just feels comfortable to use.

 

[XDaDePsak]

Lil mac is my secondary. Ryu and Lucina are my tertiaries. Working on bringing Mario and Fox up to tertiary level. May eventually work on Roy.

They're not used to cover bad matchups because other than Sonic I can't really say I have many. And I lose so rarely in For Glory that I welcome any losses I can get. If it wasn't for the occasional bad matchup, I'd probably start to get bored and stop playing unless I were to start going to IRL tournaments.

 

[goose32]

Even though I still suck with him, I'm working on Ryu as my reliable secondary. Currently it's Captain Flack, but I don't feel he fills in the weaknesses of Ike well enough.

In a tournament though, I'm not at a place where I'd use anyone other than Ike, even in a poor matchup.

 

[DarkStar64]

My secondary is Ness and I'm working on a pocket Mario

 

[Eisal]

I'm not a super good player but I like to use Palutena against projectile heavy opponents and use Ike against other who aren't absurdly fast.

 

[Valamway]

Ike is my secondary, for now, but he might become my primary main.
I play Zelda; she does well against Mega Man, and surprisingly well against Sheik.
I try to use Ike against Luigi, but it's not a great matchup either way.

The only matchup I feel really outclassed in with both characters is Sonic. Is that just me?
Am I missing something that could let me handle that MU with Ike?

 

[GhostUrsa]

@ Valamway There is a lot of info on fighting Sonic in the Match-up Thread which can help you out. If you have a video of one of your fights, getting it view-able in the Video Critic thread will allow us to help you optimize your play-style against him. You'll want to post your questions in those threads, so you don't derail this thread and get into trouble with the moderators.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Ike is my secondary, for now, but he might become my primary main.
I play Zelda; she does well against Mega Man, and surprisingly well against Sheik.
I try to use Ike against Luigi, but it's not a great matchup either way.

The only matchup I feel really outclassed in with both characters is Sonic. Is that just me?
Am I missing something that could let me handle that MU with Ike?

Are you playing online with Sonic? That's one of the answers.

Going offline, make sure you let him come to you at all times. Don't bother approaching him. He's just goading you for a cheap punish.

 

[Valamway]

I play offline as well as online, and either way really good Sonic players run circles around me.
For whatever reason I'm better at walling him off with Zelda, but I'm sure Ike should be able to handle him better in theory.

In any case, Ike has enough matchups that give him trouble that I do think secondaries are almost required.

 

[goose32]

I play offline as well as online, and either way really good Sonic players run circles around me.
For whatever reason I'm better at walling him off with Zelda, but I'm sure Ike should be able to handle him better in theory.

In any case, Ike has enough matchups that give him trouble that I do think secondaries are almost required.

Before the super-awesome-mega Ike Patch (1.0.8, if memory serves, could have been 1.0.6 or something), I would have eagerly agreed with you. However, since then, I feel that Ike can at least deal with even his unfavorable matchups, though he is still at a disadvantage. I don't feel outclassed by some characters anymore to the point where it's hopeless and a secondary is required to be successful.

 

[Mario766]

That was 1.0.4.

Also 1.0.8.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I'm definitely using Link as my secondary with Mario right up there. I was reflecting on MomoCon, and know for a fact if I'd gone Ike against Limbs' Luigi, I would not have done as well in the tournament and he would have won.

Link isn't that different from Ike, as both have disjoints with their sword. Link has a reliable FTilt kill and a wonderful camping game to boot. I'll be going him if I ever need a secondary.

 

[SwordM13X24]

I feel that stock Ike could use a secondary, but if customs were allow'd then Ike would suffice by himself. I currently have a secondary in Roy, but I feel that those 2 characters are too similar to each other. The other characters that I can use half decently are Marth and Pikachu. Out of those 4 characters, 3 are swordsmen without projectiles that makes some matchups rather difficult for myself.

 

[Valamway]

Rosie is a pretty bad matchup, but not unwinnable.
Everyone has at least some trouble with Sheik, but Ike does pretty okay by himself there, comparatively.
ROB can be campy, but his hurtbox is big enough to fair all day.
I think Olimar might be one of Ike's matchups that requires a secondary though, unless there's something I don't know.

 

[Mario766]

Ike vs Olimar isn't bad, you just gotta know the MU.

 

[BusterWolf]

I have fun with other characters as well (Roy, Ryu, Marth), and there could be days where I just decide to use someone who isn't Ike. But I would never bring someone who isn't Ike to a tournament.

 

[goose32]

Rosie is a pretty bad matchup, but not unwinnable.
Everyone has at least some trouble with Sheik, but Ike does pretty okay by himself there, comparatively.
ROB can be campy, but his hurtbox is big enough to fair all day.
I think Olimar might be one of Ike's matchups that requires a secondary though, unless there's something I don't know.

Agreed. The only thing I hate about rob is his gyro; I don't think it's op, just obnoxious. Olimar can be a real big pain, too. But I feel that problem isn't limited to Ike, since Olimar can play like a little turd.

 

[Valamway]

Ike vs Olimar isn't bad, you just gotta know the MU.

Ike versus Olimar is definitely bad. At least 35:65 if not a little worse. I could break down why, but I feel that would be off-topic for this thread.
Unless you know something I don't, in which case you should probably share instead of just saying I'm wrong.

 

[Mario766]

Ike versus Olimar is definitely bad. At least 35:65 if not a little worse. I could break down why, but I feel that would be off-topic for this thread.
Unless you know something I don't, in which case you should probably share instead of just saying I'm wrong.

...It's really not.

Ike handles Pikmin on him well because he has a move that clears his entire body, his moves out-range his normals and he can go straight through any non-purple to get in a hit. Ike also kills Olimar extremely early compared to Olimar killing him, whcih requires a hard read.

It wasn't even 35:65 in Brawl and THAT was a bad MU.

 

[Valamway]

I can definitely agree that it's not as bad as Brawl, but the SWF v3 lists that as a -2, which to me is equivalent to 3:7.
5:5 is +0, so wouldn't -1 be 4:6, etc?

In any case, you can't say this matchup FAVORS Ike.
Ike doesn't deal with projectile camping too well, which makes the matchup even harder on their CP stages.
Even if he can clear attached Pikmin quickly, that damage builds up, and smart Olimar players will use their Purples effectively.
Plus, Olimar's grab is a lot better than ours.
We have range, but their jab and run speed are faster.
Their recovery is totally beyond our control too.

 

[san.]

From how I interpret it, -1 is 45:55 to 4:6, -2 is 4:6 to 35:65. -3 is pretty much 3:7.

MUs aren't linear, more exponential. -1 is closer to 0 than -2 to -1, etc.

Olimar's movement speed is also worse than Ike's. Not sure how the MU plays out in this game.

 

[Mario766]

Olimar's jab is actually frame 4, same as ours. Ike's jab is much better range too.

Also our mobility is better than olimar. Olimar is SLOW. Every aspect of Ike is better mobility wise, he shouldn't be able to stay away from us. Olimar's recovery also isn't good, it just goes a long distance. We can swat it for free. It's MAYBE 55-45 approaching 50/50.

 

[Valamway]

They shouldn't be recovering high, unless they want to be swatted.

I do realize I was exaggerating how bad the matchup is, and san's explanation makes a lot of sense.
I still don't think it's a favorable or even matchup, but I do have more to learn.

I can agree with 55-45 Olimalph's favor, for now. A bit skeptical, but I think skepticism is healthy.

 

[Arrei]

Recovering low, Olimar's also extremely easy to kill with an Fair or Eruption. And if he tries to chuck non-purple Pikmin at us while doing so, that only makes things harder for him because we now have a damageable target to extend Eruption's active frames using the hitlag.

The way I see it, his Pikmin are just a non-flinching version of Yoshi's eggs, making them much less useful for screwing with our spacing. With his low reach outside out of Fsmash and grab, Ike shouldn't have much trouble spacing against him.

 

[underpowered]

I don't use a secondary currently, but feel I probably will have something in the pocket to use once I've got him down inside-out.

I wish I had this discipline, but then again, I just play for fun and am no good.

I keep wanting a secondary to have fun with and cover Ike's weak matchups, but my friend who plays Ryu/Pikachu loses a lot to my Ike, so I should just probably keep with him all the time, but...

Yeah, secondaries are fun. I've tried Kirby, Link, Toon Link, and, my old standby Yoshi. Charizard is my old main, so sometimes I use him, too.

I need to narrow it down. :-/

 

[san.]

I like to have a secondary that's completely different than my main. I use gunner as a secondary since she's extremely technical and therefore helps give me familiarity with such a playstyle.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I talked to Fatality. He says he goes Captain Falcon straight through. For most matchups, I would completely agree with this as Ike. But I honestly feel Diddy is nothing but absolute trouble to deal with.