Do you feel Mario's DThrow combo is situational based on character?

[Rango the Mercenary]

Characters like Luigi can just Nair you in the face. Meanwhile, Ike doesn't have the same kind of aerial defense and is forced to take several hits of UTilt before escaping.

In my case, as a Mario secondary, I almost always go right for Super Jump Punch. I don't like being hit with a counter-attack, but I do enjoy guaranteed damage. I'm not the best at hitting the Uair combo followups, but I know if the Up B connects, I can do it.

Do you feel the Uair followups (from DThrow - UTilt) are character-specific or do you have a static combo that works on most of the roster?

 

[Xeze]

Yes some Mario combos are character-specific and downthrow follow ups are one of them. What I tend to do is mix it up. For instance Luigi, as you mentioned, can nair you after like 1 u-tilt. So I deliver one and then shield predicting the nair, re-grab and can follow up with a different move.

 

[Darrman]

Yes some Mario combos are character-specific and downthrow follow ups are one of them. What I tend to do is mix it up. For instance Luigi, as you mentioned, can nair you after like 1 u-tilt. So I deliver one and then shield predicting the nair, re-grab and can follow up with a different move.

Agreed. I'm an idiot and keep up-tilting, but dtilts and up-Bs are other options. After around 40% (character dependent, just use your guts) switch to the uairs.

 

[Kathuzada]

I know Dtilt has 2 fewer frames than Utilt, would it be possible at low perecents to do Dthrow>Dtilt>Utilt on Luigi, I know it works on other characters.

 

[DunnoBro]

Vs most nair-happy chars like luigi, I charge fsmash after dthrow at 0-20%

It alters your hurtbox so you won't get hit by the nair. They're usually floaty characters like yoshi/ness, so if they use their floaty double jump to escape it instead of getting greedy, you still have an easier time punishing their landing.

It also conditions them to just jump away which can let you just follow-up normally after future dthrows.

Just be warned, stutter stepping it makes this not work very well cause mario goes forward more. So fsmashing with c-stick is recommended.

(And of course, just dthrow > upb is fine if you need the guaranteed damage and the time for conditioning/reading is just over)

Edit: Actually vs ness dsmash is better. This covers a nair or air dodge for most chars, but ness can air dodge behind you if you fsmash and punish you. Also his nair lingers at kind of a weird angle so I think at some percents it'll stuff the fsmash.

 

[DungeonMaster]

They don't register as true combos in training mode, they're not true combos. They're heavy frame advantage but completely escapable. Lag on for-glory makes them feel better than they really are, in person it's a different story.
There's a narrow window where up-tilt does in fact have enough hitstun to true combo into up-tilt but it's well into the 40-50 range.

 

[Underhill]

Besides that Luigi and Yoshi can break out of Mario's down throw combos, it can work on most of the cast.
: he can n-air out if you start at zero. However at 10-18%, it will work.
:Same, but at 12-19%, it will work. Just look out for the thunder if he tries which is free a up-smash for you even if you take the hit of the thunder, not the full damage.
: On them, you're gonna have to get up-b on her or one up-tile out of them since they can jump away.
:Spring get away for the hedgehog so use up-b on him.
,: if they use their n-air, shield it and grab them again.
:Zero, he can get away so use up throw, first. At 13-19%, the down throw combo will work on him.
: If she uses her netural b, up-smash her.
: Get rid of Luma, first.
: I'm not sure about her because I barely face any Peach players.
,,,: Their n-airs are not fast to break out of the combo, so its safe.
: Don't try to get many up-airs on him because of his n-air and jump punch.
: Counter means free grab or damage for you.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I should be releasing a video sometime in the next few months that addresses this question more reliably.

 

[ShadowKing]

Mario's dair is useful but some characters you can do it once or twice on then use a usmash

 

[MarioMeteor]

Mario's down throw is very situational. Up throw is almost always a better choice. At lower percents, anyway. Once Rage kicks in, up throw becomes pretty useless.

 

[Xeze]

Fun thing you can do after a down throw and (depending on %) one u-tilt or d-tilt is to cape them, messing up with their DI plus getting some damage in.

 

[ARKills]

Up throw is a better combo starter at low percent. If you have rage, use down throw instead.

 

[RespectingOpinions]

At below around 16 percent yeah, dthrow is a situational thing on a lot of characters. Even if you can read a characters combo breaker option with like a shield grab, you still won't get much off of it. On fastfallers you can't even try and read their escape option as they can just roll away at 0%.

Use uthrow if you have a grab on a character at low percents and without rage. However, once you're past the 15% dthrow utilt starts becoming a true combo on a lot of characters.

 

[OGPiP]

Up-throw is only a better combo starter on fast-fallers like Fox. You can do d-throw -> uptilt on a lot of the cast even at 0%. However, I still opt for up-throw -> up-air on characters that can break out of the up-tilt chain (curse you, Luigi) for an unexpected mix-up. However, you can also just go for d-throw -> up-b on characters that can break out.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I have another question. Should you jump into Uair juggles with L or X/Y?

I have trouble keeping them consistent too.

 

[smasher1001]

If you can learn it, i recommend learning to jump with L, with tap jump off. It's the most practical for efficiency imo.

 

[HFlash]

If you don't use L at all (you use R instead for shielding) then totally use L to jump. I personally like to use the Z button to jump. Lets me constantly keep my right thumb on the c stick so that I can immediately use an aerial (any aerial including nair since I have the c stick set to attack, and diagonal inputs give you nair). It takes some getting use to, but Z jumping is great. L jumping may not be as universally useful (since I found it impossible to SH consistently with triggers) but it would be the easier, quick solution for you.

 

[smasher1001]

Well, as far as the L/R being harder to use, if you make them digital it becomes the same as the z button in terms of ease of use! I had this done to my controllers awhile ago, check it out! http://smashboards.com/threads/retired-de-spring-veteran-no-more-springless-smash-4-guide.379191/

 

[Bowserboy3]

Obviously if the opponent has no damage they can escape the Up Tilt a bit quicker than if they have sustained more damage. So what I like to do as Mario is try and tack on a bit of damage first before going for Dthrow Utilt. I will try Full Hop Fireballs and hope that 4 or 5 of them can hit, while trying to get a grab. If I haven't managed to tack on any damage yet through Fireballs, I usually go UThrow into Dair. It works on most of the cast at 0%. Then when they have some damage tacked on, I can go for Dthrow to Utilt. Characters with quick Nairs like Ness, Villager, Luigi, Doc and Mario himself can all escape Dthrow to Utilt at 0% by hitting Mario with their own Nair. However, if they have a bit of damage tacked on, they cannot.

Some lighter characters can escape Uthrow to Dair as they get thrown out of Dair's range. However, this way you can just go for Dthrow to Utilt once. You don't need to worry about getting loads of Utilt's in on lighter characters as thay get killed earlier in most cases anyway. I find it better to react to their reaction to the one Utilt. For example, if they fall to the ground after the one Utilt, you can re grab, jab, Dsmash, all quick options. If they jump, chase them into the air with Uair or Up B.

And as others have mentioned, I also do use my L button to jump (I use the GCN controller). I first changed it so I could string Uair's easier with my main Rosalina, using L to jump, and C Stick to Uair. The same thing works with Mario, it makes it a whole lot easier to chase into the air with Uair.

In general, Uthrow is a bit better at 0%. When percent rises slightly, Dthrow becomes a bit better. Both are still good throws. Mario has an above average selection of throws, they all have their uses.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Someone kinda forgot to mention this (if A2ZOMG was commenting on this thread, I wouldn't be surprised that he would bring this up), but DK's Up B (same applies to Marth and Lucina, but they're much less safe), despite its hitboxes coming out on frame 4, has invincibility on frame 3, and thus it acts as a very useful combo breaker. Because of this, DK is probably the only heavy Mario can't combo reliably from his throws.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Someone kinda forgot to mention this (if A2ZOMG was commenting on this thread, I wouldn't be surprised that he would bring this up), but DK's Up B (same applies to Marth and Lucina, but they're much less safe), despite its hitboxes coming out on frame 4, has invincibility on frame 3, and thus it acts as a very useful combo breaker. Because of this, DK is probably the only heavy Mario can't combo reliably from his throws.

I never knew about this, thanks for sharing. However, wouldn't that be rather punishable? I could see a free punish upon landing for Mario.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I never knew about this, thanks for sharing. However, wouldn't that be rather punishable? I could see a free punish upon landing for Mario.

If I had had this account earlier, I would have definitely told him that. One source he keeps citing is Ally vs DKWill from January even though it's so outdated. The only exception I can think of is if DK hits a platform where Mario can't react fast enough (at least if Up B behaved exactly the way it did in Brawl).

 

[A2ZOMG]

I never knew about this, thanks for sharing. However, wouldn't that be rather punishable? I could see a free punish upon landing for Mario.

The point is it forces Mario to guess and not commit as hard, which lets DK land for free several times when he "shouldn't". It also basically removes Mario's D-air from the matchup as DK can punish it on hit by mashing Up-B out of it.

This skews risk/reward and makes the matchup worse as a result.

 

[HFlash]

Someone kinda forgot to mention this (if A2ZOMG was commenting on this thread, I wouldn't be surprised that he would bring this up), but DK's Up B (same applies to Marth and Lucina, but they're much less safe), despite its hitboxes coming out on frame 4, has invincibility on frame 3, and thus it acts as a very useful combo breaker. Because of this, DK is probably the only heavy Mario can't combo reliably from his throws.

DK's UpB is much more useful because it actually has range. Unless mario is directly on top of Marcina, the UpB won't even hit them.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

DK's UpB is much more useful because it actually has range. Unless mario is directly on top of Marcina, the UpB won't even hit them.

People always seem to use the excuse that Mario can always punish DK after using Up B, but a good DK can just go near the ledge and force the Mario to guess which ledge option he will go for. I guess this is what A2ZOMG was talking about, yet I still disagree with him saying that it horribly skews the risk:reward ratio.

 

[HFlash]

How does DK's up B being extremely punishable not make it a bad risk to reward? Hitting it means you lose a hit or 2 in the mario combo, getting baited into doing it, or missing results in another string, or Usmash finisher. Even if DK tries to fast fall tot he edge, mario can easily catch him with a nair, bair, or if he is good, fair. It should be used as a mix up at best for DK, but not something you want to do a whole lot. DK with rage is a good thing anyways, so it's not the end of the world if mario gets to finish the combo off. It's pretty horrible if Mario is able to reset the combo, or worse, has a chance to land a kill move.

 

[BSP]

People always seem to use the excuse that Mario can always punish DK after using Up B, but a good DK can just go near the ledge and force the Mario to guess which ledge option he will go for. I guess this is what A2ZOMG was talking about, yet I still disagree with him saying that it horribly skews the risk:reward ratio.

A smart Mario will have FLUDD ready and push DK past the ledge for retreating to it. Not trying to say DK's up B isn't good for combo breaking, but he should always eat a punish afterwards.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

A smart Mario will have FLUDD ready and push DK past the ledge for retreating to it. Not trying to say DK's up B isn't good for combo breaking, but he should always eat a punish afterwards.

Even more reason not to take A2ZOMG 's input seriously. He completely bypasses this whenever he talks about the MU.

 

[A2ZOMG]

A smart Mario will have FLUDD ready and push DK past the ledge for retreating to it. Not trying to say DK's up B isn't good for combo breaking, but he should always eat a punish afterwards.

Not necessarily the case if he reads you shielding instead of attacking and lands for free.

It still makes him a lot more resistant to punishes, and also removes Mario's D-air from the matchup.

How does DK's up B being extremely punishable not make it a bad risk to reward? Hitting it means you lose a hit or 2 in the mario combo, getting baited into doing it, or missing results in another string, or Usmash finisher. Even if DK tries to fast fall tot he edge, mario can easily catch him with a nair, bair, or if he is good, fair. It should be used as a mix up at best for DK, but not something you want to do a whole lot. DK with rage is a good thing anyways, so it's not the end of the world if mario gets to finish the combo off. It's pretty horrible if Mario is able to reset the combo, or worse, has a chance to land a kill move.

This is never relevant at kill percents. More importantly DK can simply choose to land for free if you shield.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

This is never relevant at kill percents. More importantly DK can simply choose to land for free if you shield.

Land for free? No, that doesn't happen against a good Mario. DK goes into free fall after he Up Bs, which a good Mario can punish easily. If you decide to shield while DK lands, you're just bad at punishing them.

Just because DK has a combo breaker doesn't mean it's necessarily a good one. And at kill percentages, Spinning Kong out of combos is basically saying, "Oh, I'm gonna get out of this potential follow-up, but I'm also giving you a chance to kill me." Jumping or air dodging is always better at that point.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Land for free? No, that doesn't happen against a good Mario. DK goes into free fall after he Up Bs, which a good Mario can punish easily. If you decide to shield while DK lands, you're just bad at punishing them.

Just because DK has a combo breaker doesn't mean it's necessarily a good one. And at kill percentages, Spinning Kong out of combos is basically saying, "Oh, I'm gonna get out of this potential follow-up, but I'm also giving you a chance to kill me." Jumping or air dodging is always better at that point.

Mario shields in anticipation of Up-B. DK reads this and does nothing and lands for free. This is not hard to condition, and happened in the Ally vs Will set.

How hard is that to understand? It forces Mario to not be nearly as aggressive, which gives DK much more freedom to reset in situations where he "shouldn't".

DK Up-B also breaks Mario D-air, which removes one of Mario's best shield pressure and option coverage tools from the matchup as well.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I also don't understand why you constantly point to that one single set when:

1. Ally clearly wasn't playing the match optimally.

2. That match occurred near the beginning of the game's lifespan, so it's likely outdated.

You also keep implying that the Mario is helpless if DK Up Bs or if Mario is anticipating the Up B but predicts incorrectly. A Mario that knows this MU should not fall prey to that so trivially. In fact, I find that this is the problem with most of your Mario disadvantageous MU analyses.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I also don't understand why you constantly point to that one single set when:

1. Ally clearly wasn't playing the match optimally.

2. That match occurred near the beginning of the game's lifespan, so it's likely outdated.

You also keep implying that the Mario is helpless if DK Up Bs or if Mario is anticipating the Up B but predicts incorrectly. A Mario that knows this MU should not fall prey to that so trivially. In fact, I find that this is the problem with most of your Mario disadvantageous MU analyses.

Let's also count the significantly more obvious number of times Will threw against Ally if you're going to argue that. It's high level gameplay either way. If anyone played the matchup very obviously suboptimally but still had the advantage, it was Will.

And DK was WORSE near the beginning of the game's lifespan, mind you.

The match still demonstrates that Ally was forced to respect the combo breaking potential of Up-B, and it gave Will many opportunities not just to reset to platforms, but to simply land for free when Ally stopped committing to juggles. For all the times Mario might juggle DK, he also has to let DK land a number of times at low percents. And DK is not easy for Mario to beat in neutral, and also is very strong at controlling Mario's landing options.

This as I stated, skews the risk reward noticeably. Mario has to make more reads to get less reward overall against DK as he would compared to some other matchups.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Let's also count the significantly more obvious number of times Will threw against Ally if you're going to argue that. It's high level gameplay either way. If anyone played the matchup very obviously suboptimally but still had the advantage, it was Will.

And DK was WORSE near the beginning of the game's lifespan, mind you.

The match still demonstrates that Ally was forced to respect the combo breaking potential of Up-B, and it gave Will many opportunities not just to reset to platforms, but to simply land for free when Ally stopped committing to juggles. For all the times Mario might juggle DK, he also has to let DK land a number of times at low percents. And DK is not easy for Mario to beat in neutral, and also is very strong at controlling Mario's landing options.

This as I stated, skews the risk reward noticeably. Mario has to make more reads to get less reward overall against DK as he would compared to some other matchups.

Anyone else want to share their input on this?

Plus, A2Z, if you want a more recent viewing of the MU (albeit with one not so great DK), watch the one below.

http://youtu.be/yRGfAR8swSk

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well you just said the DK wasn't that great so...what else is there to say frankly?

He missed a simple Up-B opportunity against the first D-air for starters and just...ran into stuff lol.

 

[BSP]

Anyone else want to share their input on this?

Plus, A2Z, if you want a more recent viewing of the MU (albeit with one not so great DK), watch the one below.

http://youtu.be/yRGfAR8swSk

A2Z is right about Dk's up B forcing Mario to respect him and not go as hard for combos. I don't think I'd go as far to say DK beats Mario but it's not free for either one of them.

We need the MU to happen at top level again. That DK didn't even do cargo Uthrow -> uair when he had a chance. Also as a player, he airdodged after getting thrown by Mario, even though there is 0 reason to do so.

 

[Actraiser]

Around what percentage does d-throw --> Fair become worth attempting?