Do we really need more nerfs at this point?

[YonoSSB]

After 3.5 removed the near unedgeguardable recoveries, the broken shield pressure tools, and all the stupidly safe+rewarding options, the top tiers consist of characters who are extremely strong because of strong punish games and tools in the neutral.

So why are people still asking for nerfs? IMO there are no characters who stand out as broken (unless you wanna argue Fox but that's a different story for a different day) and every top tier character right now has clearly defined flaws (Roy is combo food and dies early, Ike's quickdraw can get stuffed and has overly linear recovery, Wolf has spacie flaws) that balance them out.

I really love the design decision for 3.5 and I think it achieved its goal more than well enough, so I think the next patch should focus more on buffing characters who were overly hurt by 3.5 while keeping 3.5's design goal in mind this time around.

 

[Binary Clone]

So why are people still asking for nerfs?

there are no characters who stand out as broken (unless you wanna argue Fox

There ya go.

People talk about Fox because Fox is polarizing, and he's the best player in the game. Contrary to what seems to be popular belief, not that many people are actually talking about substantial nerfs to characters. Maybe small nerfs to some of the current top tiers, but most of the non-Fox discussion I've heard is about how characters like Bowser and Olimar need to be better-designed so that they can perform well.

 

[YonoSSB]

There ya go.

People talk about Fox because Fox is polarizing, and he's the best player in the game. Contrary to what seems to be popular belief, not that many people are actually talking about substantial nerfs to characters. Maybe small nerfs to some of the current top tiers, but most of the non-Fox discussion I've heard is about how characters like Bowser and Olimar need to be better-designed so that they can perform well.

I'm talking about people asking for Ike/Roy/Wolf/whatevernonmeleecharacterIjustlosttonerfs.

If it's not an issue then all the better

 

[Binary Clone]

I'm talking about people asking for Ike/Roy/Wolf/whatevernonmeleecharacterIjustlosttonerfs.

If it's not an issue then all the better

I mean, characters do need nerfs, and I don't think PMDT should be solely looking at either buffs or nerfs - they're perfectly capable of taking both into account and doing both at once.

Characters like Jiggs and Bowser and Olimar need work to make them viable or more well-rounded. But it's also worth discussing nerfs that need to happen in Ike/Roy/Wolf if you are of the opinion that they do need to happen.

In my opinion (as someone who mains Roy and plays a lot of Wolf), Roy and Wolf could certainly do with a few small adjustments to tone them down a little bit, but I don't think it's a pressing issue. I talked to Metroid the other day about Ike, and he also thinks that small nerfs would likely be a good thing.

Ultimately, I think the discussion of both is still very worthwhile.

 

[YonoSSB]

I mean, characters do need nerfs, and I don't think PMDT should be solely looking at either buffs or nerfs - they're perfectly capable of taking both into account and doing both at once.

Characters like Jiggs and Bowser and Olimar need work to make them viable or more well-rounded. But it's also worth discussing nerfs that need to happen in Ike/Roy/Wolf if you are of the opinion that they do need to happen.

In my opinion (as someone who mains Roy and plays a lot of Wolf), Roy and Wolf could certainly do with a few small adjustments to tone them down a little bit, but I don't think it's a pressing issue. I talked to Metroid the other day about Ike, and he also thinks that small nerfs would likely be a good thing.

Ultimately, I think the discussion of both is still very worthwhile.

Keyword here is small imo. They don't need 3.5 tier nerfs. I don't know much about Wolf tbh (nobody in my area plays him) but for Roy all they really need to do is make his Blazer hitbox a little smaller so that characters who are reliant on off-stage edgeguarding have a better matchup against him. If nerfs are made they should be made from the design standpoint of making less used characters more viable rather than toning down good characters (Sheik's nerfs are a great example of this)

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

As the meta of 3.5 develops, time will tell. But yes, more nerfs are needed.

 

[Rhubarbo]

We can't really know what sort of tweaks the meta needs until the PMDT opens up and balances Fox along with every other Melee top tier. Fox is so polarizing that we can't fully predict what the meta would like without him. If Fox get's nerfed, who knows how dominant Marth, Sheik, and Falco can be.

 

[ChiePet]

There ya go.

People talk about Fox because Fox is polarizing, and he's the best player in the game. Contrary to what seems to be popular belief, not that many people are actually talking about substantial nerfs to characters. Maybe small nerfs to some of the current top tiers, but most of the non-Fox discussion I've heard is about how characters like Bowser and Olimar need to be better-designed so that they can perform well.

DISCLAIMER: in absolute No way, shape, or form am I asking for an argument or trying to dispute this accurate information.

I mean forreal though, Isn't that how Fox is in Melee? It IS Project Melee, after all; If the intent was to replicate a game similar to/on par with Melee for a wider audience with more characters then Fox is still doing what Fox has always done, haha.

I love fighting Fox players, and I play Peach, It's almost a frustratingly painful fight even when it's even as can be, I understand everyones problems with him, but either way lol

 

[Binary Clone]

DISCLAIMER: in absolute No way, shape, or form am I asking for an argument or trying to dispute this accurate information.

I mean forreal though, Isn't that how Fox is in Melee? It IS Project Melee, after all; If the intent was to replicate a game similar to/on par with Melee for a wider audience with more characters then Fox is still doing what Fox has always done, haha.

I love fighting Fox players, and I play Peach, It's almost a frustratingly painful fight even when it's even as can be, I understand everyones problems with him, but either way lol

That's a common misunderstanding.

It's NOT Project Melee. It's Project M - and they've dropped "Melee" out of the name for a good while now, and with reason. That reason being that the idea is no longer to just replicate Melee, but to create a game with similar speed and mechanics to Melee, while maintaining it's own identity, particularly in terms of balance, which is the main problem that Fox poses.

That in mind, it is fair (and in the eyes of many, necessary) then to examine Fox from a character balance perspective.

 

[Strong Badam]

For the record, Melee has never officially been in the name of the game, not now nor ever. shanus created the project and has said this on multiple occasions. The original trailer (posted in January 2010) refers to it as "Project M" and nothing more.

 

[Foo]

I heard it's "Project M(ake falco's shine like melee)" so it is in the title

But yeah, this isn't meant to be a reproduction of melee and I'm glad. If this game was a 1 to 1 of melee with new characters I wouldn't play it, because melee has some seriously clunky controls and there are lots of people out there who argue that that's better because it makes the game "harder."

After 3.5 removed the near unedgeguardable recoveries, the broken shield pressure tools, and all the stupidly safe+rewarding options, the top tiers consist of characters who are extremely strong because of strong punish games and tools in the neutral

Yeah, that one's debatable, but I digress. Yes, we need more nerfs, but no, it's probably not across the whole cast. I haven't put terribly too much thought into it, but I'd like to see PM balanced around 3.5 upper mid or high (so let's say upper upper mid) tier characters, and try to put everyone around that level. (everything past here is speculation) The way I see it, I'd bet that 3.5 was a design patch, where they altered their design philosophies and had to seriously rework some characters that were, quite frankly, just silly in terms of design.

The reason melee characters were largely untouched is because it was decided that they were already designed well, but taking drastic measures to balance them before they even saw what the rest of the cast was fully realized may have been a tad preemptive. However, most of them are proving to be a bit too good as they were exempt from what I feel would have been good design changes (not even regarding balance). 4.0 (or whatever the next major patch is) will probably be a balance, or fine tuning patch, where they tweak characters to make them all a little more evenly balanced and maybe change some slight design issues. I doubt we will see any significant range, frame data, speed, or moveset changes, and will likely just see changes to stuff like knockback, angles, and damage.

After the 4.0 balance, I bet we'd see one or two more major patches and then PM (maybe for new characters? wink wink) would be considered done. Again, this is just guesswork though.

However, I do feel that certain characters like lucario, spacies, sheik, falcon, and fire emblem boys absolutely need some nerfs, and maybe some other characters like lucas, rob, tink, sonic or diddy once they are almost fully developed. Just keep in mind, I doubt it will be the type of nerfs we say in 3.5. At this point, some numbers tweaks is about all any characters need.