Dedede vs Pressure

[HelloAxi]

Characters that continuously place pressure on Dedede are a problem for us all. Characters like the spacies, Lucas (in 3.5 I don't know if it's as good), and others can easily combo Dedede and eat shield without need to be very precise (Fatty).
Firstly, does anybody else agree with the difficulty in facing heavy pressure opponents?
And secondly, what can we do with Dedede to defeat these chars?
The more experience the better.

Thanks,
and long live the King!

 

[G13_Flux]

heres my experience with DDD.

so our fastest move is grab, which is frame 7. DDDs got the third best reach in the game for grabs which means youre going to be using it a lot for quick encounters on the ground. likewise, for his fastest move, thats pretty slow in comparison to literally every other character. hes also got dtilt and utilt that are also frame 7, but last longer and have different functions. with the presentation of this frame data, and an analysis of the frame data on the rest of his moves, DDD is literally the slowest character in the game in terms of startup times, although not necessarily the most laggy; however, he does indeed have overall amazing disjoint and range. this brings me to the first point of pressure evation: prevention. you really have to have a mind for the space that your opponent can cover, and how quickly they can cover it. by utilizing ftilt, jabs, grabs, and waddle dees, you can cover space through a range and prevent the opponent from getting in. (DDDs jab is a seriously underated move, despite how slow it is. the coverage, reward, and low commitment are amazing).

now when your opponent DOES get in, DDD still has a few tools OOS and up close to take some of the heat off and avoid things like CCs and shield pressure. dair is relatively good for breaking through CCs and landing a set up for yourself. its not the quickest, but if you full hop with it, you can quickly DJ out of it far before landing, keeping you pretty safe. when speed IS needed, the obvious choice is grab. there is indeed another option OOS however which ive seen like, nobody exploit yet: his up B. on stages with platforms, you can (relatively easily actually) up b, then press down to cancel it, and slip of the edges of the platforms to cancel the lag and be able to follow up immediately. armor comes out on frame 7, and DDD can give some good slide distance if you hold a direction before leaving the ground. this can be a good retreat option if you have characters really good at mixing up shield pressure that can make landing grabs hard, or if they are at your backside. its not always a go to option, but it IS an option at times, and can get you out of sticky situations more often then you may think, considering the different possibilities of canceling in different directions off platorms (or even without, if you are confident you will hit them, and end lag wont hurt you), as well as letting the duration of the move pan out and let the landing stars give you potential coverage for safety. you will definitely get punished for using it too much, but like i said, it helps turn a gaping weakness into a more manageable one.

 

[HelloAxi]

Much of this I already know and practice aside from the up special OOS. I guess my prevention just needs improvment.
It seems like the most uphill battle with D3. The characters with the best pressure are the characters that have been played for years already or similar to them. Once they get in (and they certainly know how to) they can capitalize to the fullest extent on this fatty, which may very well end in a KO.
Any specific advice against things like drill shines or pillaring? Just let it happen lol?

Edit: What about jet hammer OOS? At its earliest it is two frames, correct? 4 frames to drop shield and 2 to use hammer. One frame less than grab.
I've never attempted this but can D3 glidetoss a walking waddle from in shield?
I doubt he can because I've never seen any posts on it but it's worth asking.

 

[G13_Flux]

It's 15 frames for a shield drop, not 4. And jet hammer doesn't come out on frame 2. I'm pretty sure it's frame 9. Ddds quickest OOS option besides rolls and spot dodges is his grab. He gets armor on frame 7 as well for up b but the attack doesn't come out until later. DDD can also only toss a waddle Dee if he wds oos. It's not a standard item that you can hold so you can't glide toss it

 

[CBalls]

He can angle shield like no one else! Use this to buy time for wavedash OOS or a calculated roll.

Aircamping these types of opponents is great for prevention, which I agree is the best way to handle pressure. Hahaha (rip in peace)

 

[HelloAxi]

It's 15 frames for a shield drop, not 4. And jet hammer doesn't come out on frame 2. I'm pretty sure it's frame 9. Ddds quickest OOS option besides rolls and spot dodges is his grab. He gets armor on frame 7 as well for up b but the attack doesn't come out until later. DDD can also only toss a waddle Dee if he wds oos. It's not a standard item that you can hold so you can't glide toss it

Yeah I just double checked Jet hammer. 2 frames AFTER startup.
and I meant jump cancelling shield. Isn't jc equal to jumpsquat time? So it's ~5 right? I'm not sure and a cursory Google search yields no answers.

 

[AUS]

DDD can be a problem against characters such as Fox/Falco, my main advice is play the spacing game and only use moves with little lag and long range since high lag moves will more often than not result in major punishes. Remember you have the longest standing grab range and the third largest dash grab range, grabbing is usually going to be your best move and can really help negate approaches. If your still having problems F-tilt is a great move to space out the opponent especially if he has a fast dash speed/walk speed. F-tilt has tons of range, medium amount of lag and has a disjointed hitbox. Very good for long range spacing. D-tilt is also an option, usually better for spacing at a closer range since it has less range however is has more power than F-tilt. Also while Im assuming you already know this your Up-tilt is your best anti-air move since it comes out very fast and has some decent range, good for if a fox is about to D-air you or even nair you. I would only suggest not using your smashes that much sadly, they may be very strong however they have a lot of start up and end lag. Both Foward Smash and Up smash are so slow that I would suggest not using but rather using their tilt counterpart. Down smash isnt bad though, using a Jab reset and then Down Smash can work sometimes and is the fastest out of all DDD's smashs. Also you can use Waddle Dashing, Im just going to post what is on the Beginners Guide to King DDD just in case you dont know how to Waddle Dash "The Waddle-Dash is an extremely useful tool that gives Dedede a significant amount of aerial momentum very quickly. It is done by simply Air-dodging into a Waddle Dee or Waddle Doo whether on the ground or in the air. When used on grounded Waddle Dees, Dedede will move a good distance forward while tossing the Waddle Dee in addition the Waddle Dee will be thrown faster than normal. This allows Dedede to move forward while throwing the Waddle Dee allowing for more follow-up opportunities and safe approaches. When used on aerial Waddle Dees or ones on platforms, Dedede will receive the same boost but since he is in the air he will travel much farther and faster. This allows you to do crazy leaps across the stage to chase opponents or recover a great horizontal distance."

Anyways good luck, use grabs and tilts and space a lot, don't be aggressive.

Edit: Also throw out some Waddle Dee's and Waddle Doo's since you have an 8.7% chance of sending out a Gordo which is super fast and has tons of knock-back.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I think watching footage of Melee Link and Ice Climbers can help with the prophylaxis part. Both have problems with pressure and use different techniques not to get in such situations.

 

[HelloAxi]

In my region there is only one other D3 that I've seen and I've got the ups on him. Additionally I've beat people in the top ten rankings of my state. Feel free to gloss over basic stuff like waddledashing. I know much of the Dedede repertoire already and use a lot of it but the pressure stuff is new since I've only begun to go to tournies featuring good Foxes and Lucas's in the last six months.

 

[AUS]

In my region there is only one other D3 that I've seen and I've got the ups on him. Additionally I've beat people in the top ten rankings of my state. Feel free to gloss over basic stuff like waddledashing. I know much of the Dedede repertoire already and use a lot of it but the pressure stuff is new since I've only begun to go to tournies featuring good Foxes and Lucas's in the last six months.

Honestly there isnt much more I can tell you then what I stated above. Play the spacing game with F-tilt and use Up-tilts as an anti-air. Against Fox's use a lot of grabs when they are approaching, however Lucas is another beast and I don't have experience in the match up so I wouldn't know how to escape his pressure, gonna have to ask someone else for him.

 

[CBalls]

In my region there is only one other D3 that I've seen and I've got the ups on him. Additionally I've beat people in the top ten rankings of my state. Feel free to gloss over basic stuff like waddledashing. I know much of the Dedede repertoire already and use a lot of it but the pressure stuff is new since I've only begun to go to tournies featuring good Foxes and Lucas's in the last six months.

Watch Big D. He will come to the area and has taken matches off of Silent Wolf and can beat Bladewise consistently enough to be seeded 2nd in our monthly tournament.

From what I learned, you have to play more patiently against high pressure opponents (he's also a Brawl DDD) and move in during the punish phases.

 

[G13_Flux]

Yeah I just double checked Jet hammer. 2 frames AFTER startup.
and I meant jump cancelling shield. Isn't jc equal to jumpsquat time? So it's ~5 right? I'm not sure and a cursory Google search yields no answers.

DDDs jumpsquat is 6 frames. using the jet hammer after jumping isnt really that efficient OOS. you cant JC into a down b. you can only JC into grabs, up smashes, and up bs.

 

[HelloAxi]

DDDs jumpsquat is 6 frames. using the jet hammer after jumping isnt really that efficient OOS. you cant JC into a down b. you can only JC into grabs, up smashes, and up bs.

Gotcha.

 

[Smur]

Find holes in their shield pressure. If you notice the Fox likes to shine after everything, wait for it (let it hit your shield) and follow up. Same applies for his double shines. This particular MU can be pretty hard to deal with if the Fox knows how to fight DDD, but can also be easy if the Fox has habits you can exploit. Try to keep him out your face and don't do anything too hasty when he starts to dash dance. If you get a grab, start your Up-throw chaingrab if he's at a low percent. Juggle him with Up-titls/Nairs or Up-airs and end with a Fair. At a high percent, Up-throw Fair is pretty guaranteed. Once you get them offstage, go to gimp city. Also also, Inhale is a really helpful move, although I can't really explain how to use it well. Think of it as a command grab.

 

[KingJames]

Find holes in their shield pressure. If you notice the Fox likes to shine after everything, wait for it and follow up. Same applies for his double shines. This particular MU can be pretty hard to deal with if the Fox knows how to fight DDD, but can also be easy if the Fox has habits you can exploit. Try to keep him out your face and don't do anything too hasty when he starts to dash dance. If you get a grab, start your Up-throw chaingrab if he's at a low percent. Juggle him with Up-titls/Nairs or Up-airs and end with a Fair. At a high percent, Up-throw Fair is pretty guaranteed. Once you get them offstage, go to gimp city. Also also, Inhale is a really helpful move, although I can't really explain how to use it well. Think of it as a command grab.

Smur is back

 

[Captain Birdman]

I think the matchup I'm currently having the most trouble with in terms of pressure would be the Sheik matchup. I can usually keep her at a distance for a while, but so many of her options are so quick, one tap usually becomes the touch of death. Her grabs can keep D3's fat self super close to just land an additional poke/re-grab, and then her tilts rack up damage until it's time to get a fair in. While that's normal for Sheik on some characters, I feel that larger ones like Dedede have an especially hard time. Any ideas on dealing with her quick and annoying pokes?

 

[HelloAxi]

I think the matchup I'm currently having the most trouble with in terms of pressure would be the Sheik matchup. I can usually keep her at a distance for a while, but so many of her options are so quick, one tap usually becomes the touch of death. Her grabs can keep D3's fat self super close to just land an additional poke/re-grab, and then her tilts rack up damage until it's time to get a fair in. While that's normal for Sheik on some characters, I feel that larger ones like Dedede have an especially hard time. Any ideas on dealing with her quick and annoying pokes?

Well I play sheik and dedede so I can give you some insight. Your best tool is cc>grab. I'm fairly certain that at max spacing for all of her moves (maybe not dtilt) you still have The ability to grab. And from there just do dedede things. She's not too light to avoid upthrow uptilt at very low percents followed by Nair string. She typically has trouble coming down from a juggle. Use those nairs and upairs. Try to stay on the ground because she likes you above her.
for edge guarding grab ledge when she tp's onto stage either ledge dash up and grab her or ledge drop, jump, swing with fair if she is high enough to fly to other side.
despite her poor recover she can wiggle around your edge guard pretty decently so most of it boils down to either you having ledge or being too fast for her tp to make her invincible. You can gimp her at super low percents. Use dair to setup for fair/bair offstage too.
Apologies for the rambliness of this post.

 

[Fakes]

So I'm fairly confident in the spacies matchup with Dedede. If I'm not getting combo'd, I generally control the stage pretty well. A grab can usually lead to big damage or even a kill.
One problem that I've come across is Falco lasers, specifically on FD. He can shoot lasers above waddle dees (which can sometimes be used to block projectiles) and even if I try to crouch below them, Dedede is so effin fat that he still gets shot.
How do you guys deal with Falco laser pressure?

 

[G13_Flux]

characters that do well versus falco generally have a great air > ground transition game, and they edge guard the living crap out of him (think peach). a couple interesting things with DDD in neutral:

1. if you do a full jump > fair, you can FF at the top of your jump, land, and have the fair auto cancelled.

2. an auto cancelled bair is safer than a perfectly l cancelled bair, and you have a good amount of leeway to auto cancel it. additionally, if you start a bair within 2 frames of leaving the ground, you can waveland after its over.

3. your jab is actually pretty good. very low commitment, just higher start up than other jabs.

4. ftilt. (lol)

5. pivot grab is insanely ranged

6. dair actually has a pretty good FAF in the air. its very easy to waveland after a fullhopped dair, FFed or not. you can also jump shortly after the apex of a full hop dair, rendering it relatively safe in cases where DDD might need to be in the air during neutral


when you combine these things together, you have a string of relatively low commitment moves that have very high priority and cover a lot of range. because of his disjoint and low lag aerials (not landing lag, but FAF in the air), DDD can cover space very well from SH AND full hops. because of great coverage on the ground (ftilt, jab, grab), he can land from his aerial options pretty safely and follow up with grounded options. characters like peach and m2 use float and hover cancelled aerials to do this, as well as garner some of the best shield pressure in the game (at least in peaches case). characters like CF and fox just have extremely low lag aerials and great SHFFLs. DDD acheives this just through covering shear space with disjoint, having a low SH, and a great FF speed. versus falco, this bodes decently for DDD since hes going to need to get above the lasers to start, unless youre great at powershielding. your ability to mix up your time in the air (with multiple jumps), or quickly land with a great range grab, jab, or ftilt is very valuable here. mix up varying timings and sequences of jumps, dairs, bairs, empty hops, and every combo you can think of, and i believe you actually are better off in neutral against falco than many other characters imo. obviously, once you can land a grab, you basically should be taking a stock. even if you can get a ftilt in to slap him off the edge, that should usually be a stock too.

 

[Fakes]

Yeah I guess I should be more comfortable in the air while playing the neutral. I totally agree though, if I'm not getting pressured by insane amounts of lasers DDD does not have a bad neutral against Falco. I'd rather face a Falco than a Fox, offstage = death and grabs usually lead to that anyway