Hi Smashboards! So Cloud has been out for quite a while now and is in my opinion and a lot of other people's opinion one of Duck Hunt's hardest match ups if not his hardest. What I want to try and accomplish is to start a discussion on different ways to deal with everyone's favorite sword wielding bad A and turn it into a match up that we can win without needing to switch characters. I would appreciate any and all comments on the subject matter. Thanks yall and have a nice day!
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Dealing With Clouds on a Rainy Day
- Thread starter TheQTpie
- Start date
WolfmanDeerek
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2016
- Messages
- 63
I've played this match up both ways quite a few times. It can be problematic when Cloud is all up in your grill because his tilts and aerials beat out almost all of Duck hunt's options. I tend to prefer Battlefield and rely alot on shield grabs and d tilts to create space. I usually toss the can out and distance myself from it. I prefer overly agressive Clouds who pursue me. That way I can play tag and use my aerials and pivot tilts to launch the can at a Cloud in pursuit.
However they play, it seems Duck hunt just can't go toe to toe with a competent Cloud. Baiting them into pursuit and pecking away at mistakes is the only way I have found success.
One thing to remember is that Cloud is vulnerable off stage and a can at the ledge while he has to recover can add to their anxiety. Especially if they are also leary of a well placed Dair. Low recovering Cloud's can be vulnerable to ledge dropped gunmen, too.
If Cloud expects an up air he may try his Dair which trashes the attempt. If you can predict that response a well timed air dodge and Nair can change their mind, but I normally try not to tangle with Cloud in the air. It mostly depends on what you think you can get away with.
Regardless of everything I stated above, I dread fighting Cloud with Duck hunt.
However they play, it seems Duck hunt just can't go toe to toe with a competent Cloud. Baiting them into pursuit and pecking away at mistakes is the only way I have found success.
One thing to remember is that Cloud is vulnerable off stage and a can at the ledge while he has to recover can add to their anxiety. Especially if they are also leary of a well placed Dair. Low recovering Cloud's can be vulnerable to ledge dropped gunmen, too.
If Cloud expects an up air he may try his Dair which trashes the attempt. If you can predict that response a well timed air dodge and Nair can change their mind, but I normally try not to tangle with Cloud in the air. It mostly depends on what you think you can get away with.
Regardless of everything I stated above, I dread fighting Cloud with Duck hunt.
Last edited:
WolfmanDeerek
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2016
- Messages
- 63
So I've been digging into some lab work and found that if you grab the ledge and Cloud does his Dtilt slide you can wait for the end of it and quickly tap down then jump and Dair spike punish. Even though he's on the ground it will spike him off stage. Nearest I can figure is his feet register off stage in the beginning of the attack.
[edit] I never tried Dair from ledge so at the time of this post I didn't know that it naturally scoops opponents too close to the edge. I'll be incorporating this more in my arsenal from now on.
Most Cloud's won't throw the Dtilt willy-nilly, but it's a good thing to remember. Ledge trump to a drop n jump Dair can also take a stock if the other player is used to you respecting his recovery. If you trump then he goes for his own trump, jump before he reaches the ledge and fast fall Dair for the easy spike. With some luck they might hang there a little too long. Most of the Dair off stage probably won't work against great Cloud's more than once, if at all, so save it for when it'll really pay off.
[edit] I never tried Dair from ledge so at the time of this post I didn't know that it naturally scoops opponents too close to the edge. I'll be incorporating this more in my arsenal from now on.
Most Cloud's won't throw the Dtilt willy-nilly, but it's a good thing to remember. Ledge trump to a drop n jump Dair can also take a stock if the other player is used to you respecting his recovery. If you trump then he goes for his own trump, jump before he reaches the ledge and fast fall Dair for the easy spike. With some luck they might hang there a little too long. Most of the Dair off stage probably won't work against great Cloud's more than once, if at all, so save it for when it'll really pay off.
Last edited:
that's actually a pretty cool interaction man! Does that work on every stage or only certain ones?
WolfmanDeerek
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2016
- Messages
- 63
I took cloud into the lab and set his behavior on stop. With his back to the ledge I shoved him as far as possible to gauge the results I got. It is possible either way he faces unless he is teetering on the edge. If Cloud is teetering it will bounce him off the ground. Because of this getting his front foot far enough over the edge without teetering him can be a bit more tedious than having his back foot past the edge.
The good news is that the spike will work at every ledge. Some stages are easier to exploit and a couple are more difficult. Because of the angle and stage tilting of Lylat it is easier to spike but the minimal % varies as the height of the ledge can raise during the spike. The duck hunt stage lends to wall jumping so you end up with Cloud doing best on your own turf oddly enough.
The general rule of thumb is that without limit cloud WILL die at 70+% if he is ledge crowding without limit. The reason d tilt is exploitable is because after it's hit box ends Cloud returns to a crouching position before being able to move. Landing near the ledge will put him in a squat animation for some frames also.
The scenario is that you grab the ledge and gain invincibility briefly while Cloud whiffs the Dtilt or lands way to close to the edge. You drop down then jump Dair when he is vulnerable to the squat, crouch, or applicable foot hanging over the edge.
Limit allows him to survive for an extra 20-25% before death is guaranteed. While he does get heavier, the jump and limit climhazard is enough to ensure limit does its job and keeps him in the game longer.
I didn't look into omega stages and mostly researched tournament friendly stages. I will list 2 percentages for each stage. The first is minimum for regular Cloud kill and the second is for limit cloud.
Final Destination: 65% 90%
Battlefield: 70% 95%
Lylat:60-65% 85-90%
Duck hunt: 70% 95%
Delfino: 70% 90%
Smashville and Town/City: 70% 90%
Dreamland: 65% 90%
Other odd things I found out....
Bayonetta is almost impossible to ledge Dair when she teeters.
Bowser is so fat that ledge Dair doesn't ko until almost 100 %.
Little people like olimar and Jiggs are the easiest to ledge Dair. Ledge Dair on Jiggs isn't as clear cut a death sentence as it is for most other characters due to her multiple jumps. Mostly deadly at 85%+ when you wait for a good footstool opportunity.
All in all I hope this research helps, it was fun work.
The good news is that the spike will work at every ledge. Some stages are easier to exploit and a couple are more difficult. Because of the angle and stage tilting of Lylat it is easier to spike but the minimal % varies as the height of the ledge can raise during the spike. The duck hunt stage lends to wall jumping so you end up with Cloud doing best on your own turf oddly enough.
The general rule of thumb is that without limit cloud WILL die at 70+% if he is ledge crowding without limit. The reason d tilt is exploitable is because after it's hit box ends Cloud returns to a crouching position before being able to move. Landing near the ledge will put him in a squat animation for some frames also.
The scenario is that you grab the ledge and gain invincibility briefly while Cloud whiffs the Dtilt or lands way to close to the edge. You drop down then jump Dair when he is vulnerable to the squat, crouch, or applicable foot hanging over the edge.
Limit allows him to survive for an extra 20-25% before death is guaranteed. While he does get heavier, the jump and limit climhazard is enough to ensure limit does its job and keeps him in the game longer.
I didn't look into omega stages and mostly researched tournament friendly stages. I will list 2 percentages for each stage. The first is minimum for regular Cloud kill and the second is for limit cloud.
Final Destination: 65% 90%
Battlefield: 70% 95%
Lylat:60-65% 85-90%
Duck hunt: 70% 95%
Delfino: 70% 90%
Smashville and Town/City: 70% 90%
Dreamland: 65% 90%
Other odd things I found out....
Bayonetta is almost impossible to ledge Dair when she teeters.
Bowser is so fat that ledge Dair doesn't ko until almost 100 %.
Little people like olimar and Jiggs are the easiest to ledge Dair. Ledge Dair on Jiggs isn't as clear cut a death sentence as it is for most other characters due to her multiple jumps. Mostly deadly at 85%+ when you wait for a good footstool opportunity.
All in all I hope this research helps, it was fun work.
Zenithia
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2015
- Messages
- 123
- Switch FC
- SW-6013-0446-3047
Coming from experience with both characters, it can go either way. Doggo out-zones him and can play very defensively, however Cloud still has huge hitboxes to let him get it in a little easier. His dash is better than DHD's, too, which is also a bonus in that department. As for recovery, they're pretty much tied in terribleness, so you want to gimp Cloud with either an aerial or the can (the can being the safest option).