De-cloning and Improvement Ideas

[Lucienta Angelus Anarkiel]

I know a lot of Falco players will complain about this thread, but I think Falco should have remained with part of Brawl's move-set. His F-Smash was okay, its damage and knock back could be arrange to Melee's F-Smash version. F-Air was an unique move for Falco and it should come back as his current F-Air; it suits him better and his Melee F-Air is not that useful, though. I would say Brawl N-Air fits more on Melee's version of Falco; I think it serves to set up better combos. Up-Tilt should remain the same as Fox, I guess. A good improvement for Falco would be adding the ability to walk or sprint while shooting lasers, giving a Star Fox series flavor. Oh, and he's Up-B animation should be arranged, adding a re-skin costume of Falco wearing a jet-pack; I think it suits him better. I know Falco doesn't need any improvement; he's fine the way he is, but I would love to see a difference upon him, though. What do you guys think?

 

[Burning Boom]

As in your Fox thread, I wonder about whether you're suggesting that his recovery be functionally, or just aestetically changed. Also, Falco's lasers are insane as is, why on earth should they be buffed? With the rest of it, I honestly forget what Falco's Brawl moveset was like, so I have no comment.

 

[Lucienta Angelus Anarkiel]

As in your Fox thread, I wonder about whether you're suggesting that his recovery be functionally, or just aestetically changed. Also, Falco's lasers are insane as is, why on earth should they be buffed? With the rest of it, I honestly forget what Falco's Brawl moveset was like, so I have no comment.

Fair enough!

 

[pkblaze]

I played Kirby when I was a kid. My transition to Falco was very smooth because his moveset is pretty much all kicks. It would kind of suck for me atleast if they removed Falco's kicks.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I dont think Falco needs a change. An up-B aestetic change would be nice but Falcos recovery needs to stay like it is because he needs to be easily gimpable to compensate for his insane pressure.
As for moves, the lasers don't need a change. Falco fair changed to Brawl nair (close range muli-hit with the wings for everyone who doesnt know Brawl Falco), well it would be a change I could understand and I think it is a good idea, but Falco melee mains probably won't like it although most of them barely use fair.

 

[GeZ]

Threads with the phrase declone in their title have no credibility.

 

[Lucienta Angelus Anarkiel]

Threads with the phrase declone in their title have no credibility.

So you prefer to play a game where characters like Fox, Falco, C. Falcon and Ganondorf are almost completely clones?

 

[Lucienta Angelus Anarkiel]

I dont think Falco needs a change. An up-B aestetic change would be nice but Falcos recovery needs to stay like it is because he needs to be easily gimpable to compensate for his insane pressure.
As for moves, the lasers don't need a change. Falco fair changed to Brawl nair (close range muli-hit with the wings for everyone who doesnt know Brawl Falco), well it would be a change I could understand and I think it is a good idea, but Falco melee mains probably won't like it although most of them barely use fair.

Up-B animation could be arrange to make it look more like using a jetpack... It would make more sense, if you know what I mean! Nothing personal.

 

[GeZ]

So you prefer to play a game where characters like Fox, Falco, C. Falcon and Ganondorf are almost completely clones?

They've got entirely different play styles. Their moves have entirely different properties. Just look at the tier lists? If Ganon's a clone of Falcon, why is he at the bottom and Falcon is high mid tier?

 

[pkblaze]

So you prefer to play a game where characters like Fox, Falco, C. Falcon and Ganondorf are almost completely clones?

As a Flaco main, I can say that the vast majority of Fox and Falco's similarities are aesthetic. Almost every move between the two, aside from like... jabbing, is different. AND jab combo got changes in PM anyways.

When I screw around with Fox, all I do in dashdance into upsmash or Nair. If I tried to pull that **** as Falco I'd get totally screwed.

Falcon and Ganon I actually find to be closer together, but that's probably a result of not playing either extensively. If I mained one I would probably have a similar reaction. So I'm taking the stance that Clones is a misnomer, as their similarities are primarily aesthetic.

 

[Lucienta Angelus Anarkiel]

They've got entirely different play styles. Their moves have entirely different properties. Just look at the tier lists? If Ganon's a clone of Falcon, why is he at the bottom and Falcon is high mid tier?

Captain Falcon and Ganondorf does not have anything in common. Both characters are from different game franchise. They should be de-cloned more than any other character in Super Smash Brothers franchise. And Ganondorf is not at the bottom of the tier list either! Where the heck you saw that?

 

[GeZ]

Captain Falcon and Ganondorf does not have anything in common. Both are from different games. They should be unclone more than any other character in the game. And Ganondorf is not at the bottom of the tier list either! Where the heck you saw that?

People have already hashed out this argument at much greater length. The Ganondorf mains like his current iteration, as it is it's own definitive version. It's not going to get changed. And he's pretty low man. In usage and ability he's considered near bottom.

 

[Lucienta Angelus Anarkiel]

As a Flaco main, I can say that the vast majority of Fox and Falco's similarities are aesthetic. Almost every move between the two, aside from like... jabbing, is different. AND jab combo got changes in PM anyways.

When I screw around with Fox, all I do in dashdance into upsmash or Nair. If I tried to pull that **** as Falco I'd get totally screwed.

Falcon and Ganon I actually find to be closer together, but that's probably a result of not playing either extensively. If I mained one I would probably have a similar reaction. So I'm taking the stance that Clones is a misnomer, as their similarities are primarily aesthetic.

I'm not saying PM:BR should change Falco & Fox's playing style and combo game... I would simply want for both of them to gain possession over different and unique move-sets, but with the same combo game and playing style as Melee version of Falco & Fox. Do you get what I mean?

 

[Lucienta Angelus Anarkiel]

People have already hashed out this argument at much greater length. The Ganondorf mains like his current iteration, as it is it's own definitive version. It's not going to get changed. And he's pretty low man. In usage and ability he's considered near bottom.

PM Ganondorf is a great character and he's not low at all! Most people don't main him because they would prefer to play as characters with easier usage and with better advantage! I would like a version of Super Smash Brothers, whereas the game itself be balanced enough, so people could enjoy their main characters and have a better chance to win! I personally think that it would make the game more competitive, better match-ups, more variety of character usage and less boring when it gets to winners bracket, since the remaining players are likely to be the same people!

 

[Lucienta Angelus Anarkiel]

I played Kirby when I was a kid. My transition to Falco was very smooth because his moveset is pretty much all kicks. It would kind of suck for me atleast if they removed Falco's kicks.

Not at all! Falco is a bird type creature and in Brawl he was more likely to use his beak and wings as part of his move-set, resembling a bird's offensive actions. On the other hand, Fox supposed to be better as a fighter, focusing on his kicks as he already does!

 

[pkblaze]

Not at all! Falco is a bird and in Brawl he was more likely to use his beak and wings as part of his move-set, resembling a bird's offensive actions. On the other hand, Fox supposed to be better as fighter focusing on his kicks as he already does!

Multiple objections to that. A: A bird wouldn't actually hit things with its wings. Wings are for mobility. Beak, yes, but the other weapon is talons, usually. And you know what's analogous to Falco's talons? His feet.

B: Foxes use their teeth. Fox's moveset doesn't use his teeth.

I'm not saying PM:BR should change Falco & Fox's playing style and combo game... I would simply want for both of them to gain possession over different and unique move-sets, but with the same combo game and playing style as Melee version of Falco & Fox. Do you get what I mean?

C: Now let's say we ported over some Brawl moves to PM for Falco (Really more like un-ported from melee but whatever). His Forward air goes from a series of weak hits to a multi-hit beak jab thing. Functionally similar, arguably a buff because it'd be a more generally applicable move. However, in checking it's brawl frame data, it's got 33 frames of landing lag, which is pretty much abyssmal even with L-canceling. Without buffs it would actually make Falco more of a sitting duck, plus he loses the utility of using Fair vs. high percent opponents for smallish knockback.

Let's look at Nair. Falco's Nair in Brawl is in that group of spinny Nairs. Some of those spinny nairs are multihit, some are a strong hit. I honestly can't remember which one. A multihit Nair would be pretty awesome for shield pressure, arguably being more valuable than Dair (Just look at Lucas's pressure game in PM) However, not looking at the above change to Falco's Fair, it would leave Falco without a good forward-facing aerial. Sex kicks are objectively really good moves. Lucas's kit can deal with a Multihit Nair cuz he's got a good Fair, but Falco doesn't have a super good Fair in either iteration of Smash he's been in.

You also talked about Fsmash. Falco's Brawl Fsmash is good but it's lacking in the range utility of his Melee Fsmash. Also, like I said earlier, wings shouldn't actually be things Falco uses if we're going all bird-themed.

 

[Lucienta Angelus Anarkiel]

Multiple objections to that. A: A bird wouldn't actually hit things with its wings. Wings are for mobility. Beak, yes, but the other weapon is talons, usually. And you know what's analogous to Falco's talons? His feet.

B: Foxes use their teeth. Fox's moveset doesn't use his teeth.



C: Now let's say we ported over some Brawl moves to PM for Falco (Really more like un-ported from melee but whatever). His Forward air goes from a series of weak hits to a multi-hit beak jab thing. Functionally similar, arguably a buff because it'd be a more generally applicable move. However, in checking it's brawl frame data, it's got 33 frames of landing lag, which is pretty much abyssmal even with L-canceling. Without buffs it would actually make Falco more of a sitting duck, plus he loses the utility of using Fair vs. high percent opponents for smallish knockback.

Let's look at Nair. Falco's Nair in Brawl is in that group of spinny Nairs. Some of those spinny nairs are multihit, some are a strong hit. I honestly can't remember which one. A multihit Nair would be pretty awesome for shield pressure, arguably being more valuable than Dair (Just look at Lucas's pressure game in PM) However, not looking at the above change to Falco's Fair, it would leave Falco without a good forward-facing aerial. Sex kicks are objectively really good moves. Lucas's kit can deal with a Multihit Nair cuz he's got a good Fair, but Falco doesn't have a super good Fair in either iteration of Smash he's been in.

You also talked about Fsmash. Falco's Brawl Fsmash is good but it's lacking in the range utility of his Melee Fsmash. Also, like I said earlier, wings shouldn't actually be things Falco uses if we're going all bird-themed.

I think all those moves could be arrange to make them better and faster than the moves Falco already has. You're right about how birds and foxes really defend themselves, though!

 

[GeZ]

PM Ganondorf is a great character and he's not low at all! Most people don't main him because they would prefer to play as characters with easier usage and with better advantage! I would like a version of Super Smash Brothers, whereas the game itself be balanced enough, so people could enjoy their main characters and have a better chance to win! I personally think that it would make the game more competitive, better match-ups, more variety of character usage and less boring when it gets to winners bracket, since the remaining players are likely to be the same people!

Well this post is just mostly wrong. Ganondorf is considered a bad character. He's got serious flaws. Just because you say he's not doesn't make it so. Project M is a very varied game. There's a ton of variety in character usage, even in the highest levels of play, and there's very few situations where you could say a player couldn't take their favorite character to a very high level. Most players actually do this.

 

[Lucienta Angelus Anarkiel]

Well this post is just mostly wrong. Ganondorf is considered a bad character. He's got serious flaws. Just because you say he's not doesn't make it so. Project M is a very varied game. There's a ton of variety in character usage, even in the highest levels of play, and there's very few situations where you could say a player couldn't take their favorite character to a very high level. Most players actually do this.

I'm sure you are mistaking PM Ganondorf with Brawl version of Ganondorf.

 

[GeZ]

I'm sure you are mistaking PM Ganondorf with Brawl version of Ganondorf.

No, I actually play a lot of P:M and have a friend who mains Ganon. This thread is just wrong man. Sorry.

 

[Lucienta Angelus Anarkiel]

No, I actually play a lot of P:M and have a friend who mains Ganon. This thread is just wrong man. Sorry.

Well, I main Ganondorf as well and I assure you that he has been improved to a new level compare to Melee's version. He was a high tier character, though.

 

[GeZ]

Well, I main Ganondorf as well and I assure you that he has been improved to a new level compare to Melee's version. He was a high tier character, though.

I know he's been improved over melee, but he's never been high tier. This conversation is crazy. Sorry man, but you're completely deluded. Someone should request this thread for closing.

 

[Lucienta Angelus Anarkiel]

I know he's been improved over melee, but he's never been high tier. This conversation is crazy. Sorry man, but you're completely deluded. Someone should request this thread for closing.

I meant between medium tier and high tier list! Weather Ganondorf should be de-cloned or not, at the end of the day the main idea of this thread remains as an Idea! If you think Fox & Falco shall remain with their proper move-sets, then that's your opinion and I respect it! This thread leads us to import new ideas of our own, so we could get somewhere! I supposed other people would like to see a difference!

 

[Vashimus]

Oh you can make a thread about it and bounce off ideas all you want. We're just telling you it's never going to come into fruition. Fox and Falco are perfectly fine from a design standpoint, unless you can make a convincing argument for why some of their moves should changed to something else. And no, "de-cloning" is not a good argument.

 

[Lucienta Angelus Anarkiel]

Oh you can make a thread about it and bounce off ideas all you want. We're just telling you it's never going to come into fruition. Fox and Falco are perfectly fine from a design standpoint, unless you can make a convincing argument for why some of their moves should changed to something else. And no, "de-cloning" is not a good argument.

Fair enough... I opened these threads because I thought PM:BR was looking for ideas involving character move-set and improvements. Since the team changed part of Wario's move-set based on Wario World and Wario Land game series as well as making minor improvements to Samus and Mewtwo according to their respective games, too.

 

[mentalmercury11]

Wouldn't it be cool if Falco got an Arwing as a final smash instead of the same landmaster tank all the starfox characters get?

 

[Illuvial]

Honestly I know this is an old thread but it really disappointed me to see Falco go from being a more unique and interesting character like he was in Brawl to the same clone character he was in Melee. I get that PM is supposed to basically just be Melee but bigger and better but come on man, did they really have to take a character that was actually unique and give him his clone status back?

 

[GeZ]

Honestly I know this is an old thread but it really disappointed me to see Falco go from being a more unique and interesting character like he was in Brawl to the same clone character he was in Melee. I get that PM is supposed to basically just be Melee but bigger and better but come on man, did they really have to take a character that was actually unique and give him his clone status back?

Someone has to say something to this effect every god damn time.

It's so old. I'm not even going to explain it.

You're wrong.

 

[equationcrunchor]

I think the idea is not, "Melee Falco is dumb and stupid and exactly like Fox," because obviously they play differently, but to just make aesthetic changes so they are kind of "decloned." Falco will play exactly the same, but have some different animations.

 

[Paradoxium]

Honestly I know this is an old thread but it really disappointed me to see Falco go from being a more unique and interesting character like he was in Brawl to the same clone character he was in Melee. I get that PM is supposed to basically just be Melee but bigger and better but come on man, did they really have to take a character that was actually unique and give him his clone status back?

Please no I don't want brawl Falco back. He was like a melee Falco who couldn't get in, all he could do was spam lasers.