Damage/Hit Stats

[Devil Ray]

I always wondered why the melee stats never recorded overall hits, so I did some counting. However, I wanted to track players and matches that had the least amount of variables. I chose to watch Cactuar vs Niko at Sudden Death and ROM. I only recorded the ones on BATTLEFIELD. I counted the hits and the percentage dealt.

match links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjBZ5kEYwes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWux6a9VctA


Here are the results:

SUDDEN DEATH MATCH 1
Niko-Hits Dealt
Stock 1: 17
Stock 2: 14
Stock 3: 10
Stock 4: 19
Total hits dealt: 60 Total damage dealt: 586 -----Winner
Damage Efficiency: 586/60 = 9.766

Cactuar- Hits Dealt
Stock 1: 14
Stock 2: 11
Stock 3: 18
Stock 4: 11
Total hits dealt: 54 Total damage dealt: 460 -----Loser
Damage Efficiency: 460/54 = 8.5185
__
ROM MATCH 1
Niko-Hits Dealt
Stock 1: 4*
Stock 2: 3
Stock 3: 3
Stock 4: 18
Total hits dealt: 28 Total damage dealt: 283 -----Loser
Damage Efficiency: 283/28 = 10.1071

Cactuar- Hits Dealt
Stock 1: 8*
Stock 2: 19
Stock 3: 7
Stock 4: NA—did not use last stock
Total hits dealt: 35 Total damage dealt: 300 -----Winner
Damage Efficiency: 300/35 = 8.5714
__

ROM MATCH 2
Niko-Hits Dealt
Stock 1: 7
Stock 2: 2
Stock 3: 2
Stock 4: 22
Total hits dealt: 33 Total damage dealt: 275 -----Loser
Damage Efficiency: 275/33 = 8.3333

Cactuar- Hits Dealt
Stock 1: 12
Stock 2: 18
Stock 3: 10
Stock 4: NA—did not use last stock
Total hits dealt: 40 Total damage dealt: 364 -----Winner
Damage Efficiency: 364/40 = 9.1

Quick Conclusion: More Hits=More damage=Good stuff. You need the hits to win. NO ****ING SURPRISE. However, each player is different every stock and deals different amount of hits and damage therefore changing the outcome of the match.

Both players are pretty amazing in their own ways. Niko won the match at Sudden Death fair and square actually, despite the perception. He had more hits and dealt more percentage. It's only natural that'd he'd win. It was close, but Niko deserved it.

Cactuar seems to be a stock tank and brings you down with him to high percents. He was above 100% on all his stocks but one, and it was an SD. Pretty ridiculous for a fox.

The weirdest thing: for ROM match 1, Niko's Damage Efficiency is higher, which is pretty weird. According to the numbers, Niko was more efficient per hit even tho he lost and was 2 stocked. He got hit more and dealt less damage, but the numbers show that Cactuar was less efficient, despite clearly winning.

*notes:
ROM match1 started late, so I estimated the hits given to niko and catuar. Even exaggerated estimates wouldn't effect the difference between them. Niko was more efficient.

Damage dealt may be slightly off because the percentage counter goes up when there is knockback.

In any form of counting, mistakes can be made but I checked and double checked to the best of my ability.

 

[Bones0]

Do a Brawl match. I bet they have more hits per stock than we do per game.

 

[Dan Salvato]

I don't understand why you're comparing number of hits to damage dealt.

 

[Devil Ray]

I don't understand why you're comparing number of hits to damage dealt.

good question.

first, damage dealt from each move is an offensive stat, so it measures how many x hits we need to deal x damage. the game does not measure overall hits, which is pretty important bc more hits=good. example: ganon dealt fox 78% damage which killed him. how many hits did it take? 3 stomps and a flash kick? medunno.

second, if you're wondering why i didn't measure damage dealt/damage taken or hits dealt/damage taken, it's bc that's mixing offense and defense stats which is a big nono. i have those numbers, but they're not useful bc we know how much damage player X dealt to player Y. you can subtract or compare the difference, but dividing is kinda pointless cuz it's not in the same category.

 

[Cactuar]

I dont really get how this is relevant in any way.

You arent measuring efficiency, youre just acknowledging that some moves do more damage than others. Smash does not have a 100% life bar in the conventional sense. If you want to measure efficiency, just take the number of hits it takes for the player to remove an opponents stock.

All you have shown is that Fox's moves hit for less damage than Marth's. If i 4 stocked a ganon, and he only hit me with one dair the entire match, according to this his efficiency would be like 22.

In summary: efficiency is number of hits it takes to remove a stock, not how much damage is dealt. You would still see matches where the winner is less efficient purely on character/playstyle differences. Gimp heavy characters will be more efficient.

Side note: you are spot on about my style though. I have very high surviveability, which went hand in hand with my hit and run methods in whittling opponents down with me.

 

[Charlie G]

I dont really get how this is relevant in any way.

You arent measuring efficiency, youre just acknowledging that some moves do more damage than others. Smash does not have a 100% life bar in the conventional sense. If you want to measure efficiency, just take the number of hits it takes for the player to remove an opponents stock.

All you have shown is that Fox's moves hit for less damage than Marth's. If i 4 stocked a ganon, and he only hit me with one dair the entire match, according to this his efficiency would be like 22.

In summary: efficiency is number of hits it takes to remove a stock, not how much damage is dealt. You would still see matches where the winner is less efficient purely on character/playstyle differences. Gimp heavy characters will be more efficient.

err yeah, this.

nice idea OP, but you done goofed son

 

[Devil Ray]

All you have shown is that Fox's moves hit for less damage than Marth's. If i 4 stocked a ganon, and he only hit me with one dair the entire match, according to this his efficiency would be like 22.

In summary: efficiency is number of hits it takes to remove a stock, not how much damage is dealt. You would still see matches where the winner is less efficient purely on character/playstyle differences. Gimp heavy characters will be more efficient.

Side note: you are spot on about my style though. I have very high surviveability, which went hand in hand with my hit and run methods in whittling opponents down with me.

fair points, but that's a different side of the idea.

if ganon took 4 stocks off a fox with 8 hits, by "your definition" it would be efficiency of 50%. But if the opponent fox only took 1 stock off with 1 hit...that's an efficiency of 100%, despite getting 3 stocked. i think your idea would be better with hits landed vs hits missed.

but for the idea aforementioned, with the UNLIMITED times a character can throw out a move, how many did it take to get to a certain damage point? that's what i was trying to answer.

so for match 1 at Sudden Death, by my numbers Cactuar's damage efficiency was only 8.51 percent(damage per hit). At that rate, he would have needed 14-15 more hits to get close and win the match, which makes sense bc Niko dealt 126 more damage than Cactuar. lemme know what you guys think.

 

[Dan Salvato]

I think it would make more sense if there was a specific death percent, but it's not very applicable when a player can die at any percent.

 

[ph00tbag]

As Cactuar said, this isn't really a great measure of efficiency so much as general damage output. It's interesting when evaluating a character, but as far as allowing one to critique a player, it's not really salient.

 

[Cactuar]

Its a per stock efficiency, so yes, the fox killing one stock in one hit would have been 100% efficient. For that one stock.

Damage efficiency is a somewhat useless statistic.

Look at a fairly bread and butter fox combo: drill shine. It is common for me to kill people with a drillshine to the edgd, then shine again before they grab it from the slide off. Drill does like 5 damage, and shine does 5 per hit. This is a 0 to death combo at any percent, and it only does 15 damage. Divided by three, the damage efficiency is only 5, but who the **** cares. I took the stock.

 

[Devil Ray]

i'm estimating how many more hits a player needs to win. considering all 3 matches showed that the winner dealt more damage, i would say damage is important.

but obviously i think damage and stock are both valuable, and i suppose it is possible to combine them.

for ROM match 2, the death percent average Cactuar was surviving for his first 2 stocks would be 97 average(194/2). at niko's rate of damage efficiency of 8.33, he would probably need another 13-14 hits to beat Cactuar before dying. i'm not saying that's exactly what would happen, i'm just saying it's likely.

same thing for Cactuar on Sudden Death Match 1. niko's average death percent: 120.66(that's really high btw). Cactuar probably needed 14 hits more to win before dying.

 

[Cactuar]

Your original statement and what you are saying now are not the same, which is good.

Your first post was trying to relate damage efficiency with player skill and expected outcome of the match, when it doesn't really have anything to do with it. (Saying something like "Niko's Damage Efficiency" rather than "Marth's Damage Efficiency" makes this obvious.")

Your last post is relating hits landed combined with expected survivability to obtain expected outcome.

When you combine the two, you can derive how many hits the opponent will likely need to take the stock, but really, all you need to know is what percent the opponent gets to on average before losing the stock. This gives us expected survivability when compared against average damage per hit (based on character, NOT player). When (expected number of hits landed x damage efficiency) > expected survivability, you can potentially get an expected winner. This method takes a huge hit whenever an SD or gimp occurs though, which is what occurred in the Sudden Death match.

This is obvious though. Once again, damage efficiency is somewhat useless in the format that you originally presented. It gains a great deal of utility when you have a wider range of statistics to use it with, but your initial post did not have that information, which is why I'm pushing you to think a little bit more outside the box.

 

[Devil Ray]

haha, thanks. let's see if i can work it out