Customs Comprimise: Three Default Sets Proposal

[Saikyoshi]

While I do strongly support a customs-allowed meta, I do acknowledge the problems associated with it, especially with the customless DLC characters around. Yes, with a completely unrestricted custom environment, the seven characters without customs are doomed to stagnation as new combinations are repeatedly found with the default characters.

So, while using Smash Tour to grind for items and moves, I made a realization;

The game itself treats 2222 and 3333 as other default sets. The 2 and 3 character panels never deviate from 2222 and 3333.

So, if setups were to just allow these two custom movesets, universally across every character, I see a number of benefits that a totally unrestricted customs meta would not have;

• There is a fixed and manageable number of characters.
  • In a traditional Customs On setup, every non-DLC character has 81 possible combinations of moves. That means, counting the seven DLC characters, there are functionally 4,138 characters in total. This isn't something that can be managed. In a 1111/2222/3333 setup, the number is a much smaller 160.
  • Instead of having to debate which combinations to install on a given console, a 1111/2222/3333 setup would be compact, and could easily be set up on a console even with someone's personal customizations already on it. This means that potential competitors will be able to study at home without having to sacrifice their own save data.
  • Matchups between individual characters will be less of a nightmare as well. For example, the the vs. matchup; even if the matchup was to Bayonetta's advantage (just being hypothetical here with a first vs. last scenario), the Bayonetta player would still have considerable trouble because they would have to potentially study against 81 possible Marios. With only 3 Marios, the differences between them are more slight; there are no unexpected nasty surprises with combinations that the Bayo player couldn't have possibly thought of. The Bayo player can now adequately prepare.
• If tied to fixed sets, disproportionately powerful moves are counteracted. No more Minmaxing sets.
  • 's Timber Counter spelled the death of the Customs meta for quite a few people. I've also heard 's Extreme Judge and 's Hyper Monado Arts cited a few times. Well, if tied to other moves, a player using Timber Counter will have to be saddled with Liftoff Lloid, greatly suppressing a TC Villager's dreaded camping ability. An Extreme Judge user will have to sacrifice their approach game with XXL Chef. A Hyper Monado Arts user will have to deal with the Ganondorf-esque problem of Back Slash Charge, Mighty Air Slash, and Power Vision.
  • On a related note, if lesser-used moves are forced into play by being tied to more common ones, then they, too, can be studied when before they've remained completely in the dark.

There are also general benefits to saving a 2222/3333 set outside of tournaments, but as this thread deals with competitive speculation, I won't get into those right now.

 

[Ulevo]

I have a compromise.

Give Mii players what they want.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I have a compromise.

Give Mii players what they want.

I honestly can't tell the nature of this post; sarcasm/anger, joking, an honest suggestion, it can be read as any of those.

For the purposes of this thread, I'm counting each Mii class as one character and assuming "Only Guest A allowed" rules. While I like Miis on a personal scale, I do acknowledge the issue with them in a competitive setting.
Therefore, under this proposal, Miis would be limited to Guest A Brawler 1111/2222/3333, Guest A Swordfighter 1111/2222/3333, and Guest A Gunner 1111/2222/3333.

 

[paperchao]

This compromise seems pointless, as it takes away the whole idea of customs, customization. And restricting it to just 2 sets is arbitrary since we don't play the competitive game on smash tour, but the character select screen. Which has no restrictions whatsoever to the customs (unless you still haven't unlocked them, obviously). Anyways those are my two cents on this compromise.

 

[Saikyoshi]

This compromise seems pointless, as it takes away the whole idea of customs, customization. And restricting it to just 2 sets is arbitrary since we don't play the competitive game on smash tour, but the character select screen. Which has no restrictions whatsoever to the customs (unless you still haven't unlocked them, obviously). Anyways those are my two cents on this compromise.

The idea behind this is to allow every attack while minimizing the problems associated with them. In a customs off meta, all of those attacks would simply be banned.
Smash Tour just happened to provide a spark of inspiration for me; a method to accomplish this. (Just for the record, I HATE Smash Tour as a gameplay mode and was only slogging through it because it's one of the most effortless ways to grind.)

I respect your opinion, and in an ideal world, there would be no restrictions whatsoever with an effective and efficient way to manage the complications associated with them. But that's unfortunately not the case, and on top of that, people far more influential than us have made their voices heard, so I think we have to give a little if we want the moves to be allowed at all.

 

[Respect38]

I have a compromise.

Give Mii players what they want.

Actually, I think we should give Mii players exactly what the game gives them.

...wait, those two things are identical. My bad; I assumed there would be some logic to the current popular policy on Mii characters.

 

[Teshie U]

Compromising to some arbitrary configuration like 2222 or 3333 is hardly fair to everyone. Some characters have 2222 (or something close) as an optimal set, and some have 1213 or something.

Also different variations of a character aren't 81 "different" characters. What matter is how your character interacts with their character's moves. There are only 12 different ones in this situation.

I think a more fair compromise is to allow only 1 custom move at a time. Everyone gets the default + 8 singular modifications that easily fit in the 10 spots. The questionable "over-centralized" sets are left out and everyone gets to choose 1 thing to improve on.

Allowing things based purely on menu design is completely silly though.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Compromising to some arbitrary configuration like 2222 or 3333 is hardly fair to everyone. Some characters have 2222 (or something close) as an optimal set, and some have 1213 or something.

Also different variations of a character aren't 81 "different" characters. What matter is how your character interacts with their character's moves. There are only 12 different ones in this situation.

I think a more fair compromise is to allow only 1 custom move at a time. Everyone gets the default + 8 singular modifications that easily fit in the 10 spots. The questionable "over-centralized" sets are left out and everyone gets to choose 1 thing to improve on.

Allowing things based purely on menu design is completely silly though.

With that, Villager would still have the dreaded 1112, and then we're back at square one.

What I'm trying to get at with the ST inspiration was that the way it occurs made me think that perhaps the custom moves with matching numbers were designed to be used with each other. I don't think any 2222/3333 set is optimal for a given character; it feels like they're designed to shift the balance of the character's playstyle in a different direction.

Basically what I'm trying to say is I think that the moves with matching numbers match on purpose. Like 1111 moves were designed to work with each other into a single playstyle, I have a strong feeling the same design principle went into 2222 and 3333.

 

[Teshie U]

Do we really care about developer intent here? We are just talking about how to conveniently allow customs.

Its rare that a character wants 2222 or 3333, but its very unfair towards characters that are essentially ruined by swapping out an Up B or Side B within their recovery.

There was at least one set in the EVO preload sets that was 2222. Even if its not a perfect match, giving 2222 to a character that wanted 2122 is unfair while you give 3333 to a character that wanted 1311.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Do we really care about developer intent here? We are just talking about how to conveniently allow customs.

Its rare that a character wants 2222 or 3333, but its very unfair towards characters that are essentially ruined by swapping out an Up B or Side B within their recovery.

There was at least one set in the EVO preload sets that was 2222. Even if its not a perfect match, giving 2222 to a character that wanted 2122 is unfair while you give 3333 to a character that wanted 1311.

What about characters whose optimal sets are 1111? With this line of argument, don't you think those would have an advantage in the current no-customs meta? Who is it fair to that Villager gets 1111 when he wants 1112?

Seriously, Timber Counter is probably the reason I hear most often regarding people who don't want customs after EVO '15, so I'm not going to stop citing it. Banning individual moves would be a messy business, so I feel it needs to be offset instead.

EDIT: I'd like to clarify that I'm not accusing Timber Counter of being cheap/OP. But the fact remains that it's fairly unpopular among spectators.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The biggest benefit I can see to forcing 1111/2222/3333 sets is as a way of getting people's feet wet WRT custom moves in general, i.e. exposure in a slightly more controlled context than the wild free for all of trying to minmax everything at once. I can see how "here are 3 options per special, have fun" can overwhelm some people, although I also think people shouldn't be afraid of experimenting. But I digress.

I would never support it as a long term permanent solution though.

 

[Deleted member]

Restricting people's playstyle is just wrong, I think what we have as vanilla meta is alright, yeah I totally like 's 1112, I personally don't think it's broken. (I know the bias is strong, lol.) We should stick to what we have, or just customs, without any drawbacks. It justs keeps separating the community, and not to be rude, just talking out my opinions, it's just stupid.

 

[Respect38]

That's the problem, though. Should "what we have" include the fact that Mii Fighters can use their customs, by design, even when customs are off? That's certainly how the game is designed to work with custom moves off, but many people disagree and decide that Miis should either be banned or nullified by preventing them from using their 2 and 3 slot moves even when the game allows them to do so.

I'm honestly not sure if there's a proper logistics argument as to why we can only use guest Miis, but saying that Miis should be prevented from using their moves is something that should be taken with as much care as whether we ought to ban Meta Knight in Brawl.

 

[Masonomace]

TL;DR From the Shulk perspective of this proposal, I'm against it as a whole. Only one set (2222) works the most alongside 1111 & in a good amount of match formats, but the other set (3333) is a mess & makes no sense, just like it may be for the other 50+ characters.

Shulk is one of those characters that theoretically has no useless custom moves, whereas some characters could be argued that they don't have a single "good" custom move. Yes there are a few of Shulk's custom moves that may be considered "bad", but they have a niche use at least. Now my issue with this proposal is that it's far too arbitrary for Shulk players because all you're left with is two additional sets with one actually being a fairly good set, & the other being a mess. The creativity & synergy put into multiple sets is lost, so basically I'd be only in favor of using the vanilla move-set & just one created custom set. However, you would be locked into using just that one set if you decide to use it for the whole tournament as that character.

Set 2222
2: Decisive Monado arts
2: Back Slash Leap
2: Advancing Air Slash
2: Dash Vision
This set is actually not a bad set. The overall synergy of this set blends well with Shulk's kit because all five Decisive arts compliment Advancing Air Slash & does not hinder the move much at all. Back Slash Leap isn't that bad but isn't as good in comparison to Back Slash now since the frame buff to it, not to mention that BSL isn't fully ideal for 2222 since you're better off with 2122 or 2322 to shine in Doubles. And Dash Vision works well with Decisive arts or Advancing Air Slash in matchups you may have found difficult before, like dealing with projectile zoning or mid-range pressure.

Set 3333
3: Hyper Monado arts
3: Back Slash Charge
3: Mighty Air Slash
3: Power Vision
This set is. . .a mess. It's not consistent, reliable, or have that much synergy imo. Yes you get Hyper Smash art with Power Vision forwarded to cheese you at stupidly early kill percents, but that's the only shining factor to it all besides Hyper Buster art with forwarded Power Vision dealing TONS of damage, or Hyper Jump Mighty Air Slash recovering from DEEP. Hyper arts are ridiculously short-lived & they don't blend well with Mighty Air Slash or Back Slash Charge that much. This set used against heavy zoning or any amount of zoning or footsies just destroys 3333 Shulk & will never allow you to utilize Hyper arts unless you have the full stage advantage & control.

 

[Saikyoshi]

The biggest benefit I can see to forcing 1111/2222/3333 sets is as a way of getting people's feet wet WRT custom moves in general, i.e. exposure in a slightly more controlled context than the wild free for all of trying to minmax everything at once. I can see how "here are 3 options per special, have fun" can overwhelm some people, although I also think people shouldn't be afraid of experimenting. But I digress.

I would never support it as a long term permanent solution though.

This might be best. Even I don't think the compromise is going to be a permanent solution, but I think it's generally a good idea to make those sets on your personal setup so you can try out any custom move easily and conveniently without having to go back and forth with the menu.

That's the problem, though. Should "what we have" include the fact that Mii Fighters can use their customs, by design, even when customs are off? That's certainly how the game is designed to work with custom moves off, but many people disagree and decide that Miis should either be banned or nullified by preventing them from using their 2 and 3 slot moves even when the game allows them to do so.

I'm honestly not sure if there's a proper logistics argument as to why we can only use guest Miis, but saying that Miis should be prevented from using their moves is something that should be taken with as much care as whether we ought to ban Meta Knight in Brawl.

The argument for only using guest Miis is that they're on every console with no exception or variation. There's no chance of a setup forgetting to scan a particular QR code or accidentally setting the wrong size/height by a tick or two without realizing it.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Okay heres my thoughts on Ganons custom sets
2222
Warlock Blade: A great improvement over Warlock Punch. This extends the hitbox plus grants Ganon a shield break option.
Flame Wave: Reduces his horizontal momentum, but thats fixed with Drop kick anyways. This thing kills insanely early. Its okay, not as good as chain or choke imo but still not bad.
Dark Fist: OH BOY. One of the 2 moves that I think help Ganon so much. It gives him ANOTHER kill option, an amazing OOS, helps his recovery by giving him armor and a better horizontal reach.
Drop Kick: OHHHH BBBBBOOOOOOYYYYY this move single handingly aids Ganon so much it isnt even funny. With it he gets amazing horizontal recovery, an amazing approach option, can avoid a large number of projectiles (EVEN NEEDLES) and basically gives him the things he needed most. Amazing in every way

3333....ugh
Warlock Thrust: A downgrade in every single way. No armor, weaker, and the entire thing isnt good. Sure its faster but that doesnt mean anything. Its not good in comparison to his other 2 in any way.
Flame Chain: While it gets rid of flame choke tech chases, and ganoncides you do gain a better horizontal recovery option and highly damaging bursts of damage off of roll reads with it. Not bad. Not my favorite.
Flame Vault: Just not good in comparison to dark fists. It does less damage, but does give him better recovery i suppose over his default. Its still ery easy to gimp him during the second jump however.
Wizards assault: I dont see this as useful at all. Sure it meteors, but good lord compared to drop kick and foot its just....bad....

2222 ganon or 2122, or 2322 ganon would be a dream come true but id be super happy if we got 2222 ganondorf.

 

[Kofu]

I'd rather run 1121 Villager than 1112 Villager. Extreme Balloons are a far more powerful tool than Timber Counter IMO.

This is an interesting option, but for most characters these sets either tend to lack synergy or over-emphasize a particular aspect (one of Link's sets is a straight-up power set). As much as I find customs fun I don't think they'll be returning in full force in competitive Smash. Too many logistics and opinions to sort through, and without a 3DS to aid in setup unlocking all customs is an absolute pain (or at least time commitment).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'd rather run 1121 Villager than 1112 Villager. Extreme Balloons are a far more powerful tool than Timber Counter IMO.

This is an interesting option, but for most characters these sets either tend to lack synergy or over-emphasize a particular aspect (one of Link's sets is a straight-up power set). As much as I find customs fun I don't think they'll be returning in full force in competitive Smash. Too many logistics and opinions to sort through, and without a 3DS to aid in setup unlocking all customs is an absolute pain (or at least time commitment).

I think this is because, at least on a per-character basis, the customs are roughly arranged in the same way for each slot. That is, if Link's neutral special 2 is Power Bow (is it?), then his side/up/down special 2 will also be the "power" options. There are probably exceptions and I wouldn't take it as gospel, but it seems like an intentional design choice.

(Another one that comes to mind is Shulk. His 3 options are Hyper Arts, super armored Back Slash, a stronger and higher Air Slash at the cost of a smaller hitbox, and Power Vision.)

Strong-Arm 's post inspired me.

Rosalina 2222: Luma Warp, Floaty Star Bit, Launch Star Plus, Catch & Release
In this context, it's probably a good thing that Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit aren't mapped to the same custom number, if only for everyone else's sanity. Floaty Star Bit is a good lingering hitbox option, but it's a bit sluggish to come out and doesn't immediately threaten space like default or Shooting do. Recovery is harder to gimp but less flexible, Catch & Release is garbage tier. Overall I'd say this set is functional, geared towards disruption of mid-to-close range fighters that lack projectiles, or at least lack a projectile worth absorbing. Really, the only bad special here is Catch & Release.

Rosalina 3333: Power Luma Shot, Shooting Star Bit, Launch Star Attack, Guardian Luma
This one is...ugh. Power Luma Shot is barely passable. Shooting Star Bit needs no explanation. Recovery goes down the toilet, but it has a hitbox so you can't challenge it for free anymore so that's something I guess? Guardian Luma is a multifaceted yet still somehow inferior move to default GP, but it's perfectly workable in a vacuum. Of note is that it still pulls in items, and by extension item based projectiles like Metal Blade. Luma is also 100% invincible while embiggened. This set is by far the worst of the lot IMO, and I'd keep Luma linked to myself at almost all times barring niche ledge traps while using Shooting Star Bit to zone and Guardian Luma as something approaching a GTFO option.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I always understood the problem with Customs to be the sheer difficulty and grind involved in unlocking them for console after console after console.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I always understood the problem with Customs to be the sheer difficulty and grind involved in unlocking them for console after console after console.

It is to a degree, but I'll break out my old personal anecdote again and talk about how I fully unlocked all customs twice (3DS and Wii U) in less than a month each doing little more than simply playing through the various 1P modes and clearing the "beat classic/all star with every character" challenges.

If you need to get them all ASAP and focus purely on whatever method is fastest, then yeah it's tedious as hell. But there's more than one way to skin a cat, and unless you're a TO with multiple setups to personally manage, it's something you only need to do once ever, barring catastrophic data loss.

Also it's probably only a matter of time until sometime comes up with a hack to forcibly unlock everything at once.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

People don't like customs. Just because you're limiting it to 2 custom movesets doesn't mean people will change their minds.

And before anyone says "But I like customs!" or "But my local scene runs customs!", please remember that you are the vocal minority, not the majority.

 

[Saikyoshi]

People don't like customs. Just because you're limiting it to 2 custom movesets doesn't mean people will change their minds.

And before anyone says "But I like customs!" or "But my local scene runs customs!", please remember that you are the vocal minority, not the majority.

First of all, I'd say the opposite was true; people who want to at least give customs a chance are the majority, but the people against customs in any way, shape, or form are louder.

Second of all, the point of this is to try to directly address the problems associated with them.

 

[Pyr]

First of all, I'd say the opposite was true; people who want to at least give customs a chance are the majority, but the people against customs in any way, shape, or form are louder.

Second of all, the point of this is to try to directly address the problems associated with them.

Do either of you have sources at all?

That said, if this is meant to address all the logistical problems with custom moves, it does a horrid job at it. We had the discussions a year ago. 1111/2222/3333 won't be agreeable because too many "all or nothing" people exist and won't see it as a valid compromise.

That's not even to speak of how flawed the OP is. I mean... We have threads with thousands of posts that covered this.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

First of all, I'd say the opposite was true; people who want to at least give customs a chance are the majority, but the people against customs in any way, shape, or form are louder.

And I'd say that you're delusional. Do you see ANYONE advocating for customs at EVO this year (not including Miis)? No, you don't, because no one actually wants customs.

 

[Megamang]

Timber counter aside, Pushy Loid, Hammer Spin Dash, Burning Spin Dash, Double Spring, Teleporting Luma, Luma's Freakin Falco Laser, anything with stun, Heavy Skull Bash, Scalding Fludd, Dark Fists are all customs I dislike purely for their properties, not how they are unlocked, not how TOs have to manage them, but because facing their characters with those moves is silly. Watch how Ally handled ESAM's stun and HSB pikachu back at EVO. Spoilers, he camped the platforms the entire game and it was boring as hell for me personally. And yes, they have added Witch Time and other things which limit your input and movement, but something existing isn't a reason to add more of it.

I do believe Mii's should have guest size and all their customs, if they are to be allowed.

Just trying to stop the back and forth of 'here, this is a way to make the TOs job easier/unlock customs quickly/ balance centralizing customs'; some anti-customs people are arguing that they simply dislike the gameplay when customs are enabled. I just don't like playing against it ,having to learn stuff about it, or even watching it. It was kinda fun to mess around with and I show my friends customs because they are interesting on a surface level, but at a tournament I don't like Mario having freakin Scald from pokemon.

 

[Radical Larry]

Okay heres my thoughts on Ganons custom sets
2222
Warlock Blade: A great improvement over Warlock Punch. This extends the hitbox plus grants Ganon a shield break option.
Flame Wave: Reduces his horizontal momentum, but thats fixed with Drop kick anyways. This thing kills insanely early. Its okay, not as good as chain or choke imo but still not bad.
Dark Fist: OH BOY. One of the 2 moves that I think help Ganon so much. It gives him ANOTHER kill option, an amazing OOS, helps his recovery by giving him armor and a better horizontal reach.
Drop Kick: OHHHH BBBBBOOOOOOYYYYY this move single handingly aids Ganon so much it isnt even funny. With it he gets amazing horizontal recovery, an amazing approach option, can avoid a large number of projectiles (EVEN NEEDLES) and basically gives him the things he needed most. Amazing in every way

3333....ugh
Warlock Thrust: A downgrade in every single way. No armor, weaker, and the entire thing isnt good. Sure its faster but that doesnt mean anything. Its not good in comparison to his other 2 in any way.
Flame Chain: While it gets rid of flame choke tech chases, and ganoncides you do gain a better horizontal recovery option and highly damaging bursts of damage off of roll reads with it. Not bad. Not my favorite.
Flame Vault: Just not good in comparison to dark fists. It does less damage, but does give him better recovery i suppose over his default. Its still ery easy to gimp him during the second jump however.
Wizards assault: I dont see this as useful at all. Sure it meteors, but good lord compared to drop kick and foot its just....bad....

2222 ganon or 2122, or 2322 ganon would be a dream come true but id be super happy if we got 2222 ganondorf.

Actually, I'll explain the 3333 set.

Warlock Thrust:
Pros:
-Much Faster Startup
-Bigger Range than Warlock Punch
-Causes some high stun on opponents if they're hit.
-Good for stage spiking or punishing some recoveries.

Cons:
-High ending lag.
-Deals a max of 16% at fist.
-Has low knockback.
-Can be punished on block.
-Reversing it does nothing and stays out even longer in air.

Flame Chain:
Pros:
-Deals multiple hits that link together quickly.
-Gives Ganondorf much, much more distance to cover on ground.
-Bigger hitbox than the other Flame moves.
-Ganondorf can't fall off the edge easily, unlike the other two moves. He will stay at the edge no matter what.
-Great for horizontal KOs if in the right position.
-Great for stage spiking.
-Amazing for reading getups and getting opponents off stage.
-Deals more damage than Flame Choke.
-Semi-spiking move that can kill opponents with bad recoveries.
-Auto-linking.
-Better recovery since hitboxes are bigger.

Cons:
-Somewhat above-average endlag.
-Ganondorf cannot Ganoncide opponents, nor perform tech chases.
-Somewhat unsafe on block.

Dark Vault (Not Flame Vault):
Pros:
-Increased recovery height.
-Two grab hitboxes instead of one.
-Allows Ganondorf to recover from far below the stage.
-Can stage spike opponents.

Cons:
-Weak damage output.
-Almost no horizontal recovery distance.
-No decent knockback, killing at higher damages.
-Easy to gimp.

Wizard's Assault:
Pros:
-Can be used as an attack to early KO some opponents or set them up to get them off stage.
-Doesn't slow after hitting opponent or shield.
-Greater range as a result of the former.
-Increased meteor hitbox duration, lasting nearly the entire attack.
-Still has high non-meteor knockback.
-Great use for recovering back to the stage from above.
-Is very fast once the startup ends, so he can recover from above the stage quick and can hit unsuspecting opponents.

Cons:
-Slow start up.
-Goes directly downward, removing recovery capabilities.
-As with the last pro above, there is a con to the speed, as the speed also increases the speed of his KO off stage.
-Akin to Wizard's Foot, Ganondorf can be beaten by a disjointed upwards attack if this is used mid-air.

That's all I can explain.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

And I'd say that you're delusional. Do you see ANYONE advocating for customs at EVO this year (not including Miis)? No, you don't, because no one actually wants customs.

I do, but I'm also smart enough to pick my battles and the current mood is pretty clearly against them, so I don't bother.

 

[Radical Larry]

And I'd say that you're delusional. Do you see ANYONE advocating for customs at EVO this year (not including Miis)? No, you don't, because no one actually wants customs.

Do you speak for the entire community? No you don't, so please bar from actually saying this, as I infer, on behalf of anyone.

I'm more of an advocate of Custom Movesets because they give variety within the game that normal moves do not, and I'll give you the outlining as to why the tournament should allow customs for EVO and why the Smash Community should not even be against these. This will be in a topic post in another thread.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Personally I think 1111/2222/3333 would be a cool subset of custom moves to learn. There's a lot of crap, but the same could be said of many custom moves as a whole. If it were the ultimate compromise, it doesn't seem like a nightmarish post-apocalyptic world to live in.

If nothing else, trying to push the boundaries on these arbitrary sets would be interesting to follow. Will the 'bad' sets find a niche use that's fun to use or watch? Will the 'best' sets start to lose their novelty the more and more people learn to beat them?

But this appeals to me only as someone who likes to think and challenge. From the perspective of tournament play, where there's money on the line and you need to use a solid character to receive solid returns with a win, nobody will use the movesets that are irrefutably bad. Just because Melee Kirby's available, doesn't mean anyone's going to use him unless they have a death wish.

On the other hand, what does this say for Doubles? Are there any xxxx sets that see a shift in usefulness in the doubles environment, where your partner can cover your weaknesses for you? Where your partner can help set up the otherwise impossible setups? That seems like something I'd want to see.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The main problem with 1111/2222/3333 sets is that they do not solve the REAL issue with Custom moves: the unlock time, as you need to unlock every single one of them in order for this to work.
And if you already have them, why limit it?

Now, as we've decided here, we'll be moving all Customs Discussion to a single thread located here: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-fighter-atelier-a-place-for-the-customs-meta.431973/
If you have something to add, please do it there, any discussion on how to improve the Customs meta is welcome!