Custom Moves and Tier Lists

[Altea77]

Since all characters have custom moves that can drastically increase their performance, will final tier lists be based on the best combination of custom moves, or just the default? Seems like it complicates things a lot.

 

[Pyr]

I figured it'd be like SF4 handled it with 2 different Ultras and one option to use both: Consider the variables and benifits all the options bring, look at tournament and matchup rankings, and then decide from there.

I don't think it'll complicate things too much. It'll just be another variable in the formula for a tier placement.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It seems logical that tier lists will assume optimal custom movesets, assuming custom movesets are allowed in the first place.

 

[Raijinken]

If customs become standard (aka if national tournaments are consistently played with customs), then customs will be factored into regular tier lists, as those will be widely used and thus analyzed. If customs remain a side event or occasional tournament ruleset, they'll probably either get their own less-frequently-revised tier list, or be ignored in favor of the common style.

 

[Gamr_8]

will be at the top of both tiers, if they made 2

 

[Cornstalk]

It's really going to depend on how customs are handled.

If customs are allowed to be selected AFTER both players have chosen their characters and confirmed (so after blind picks), characters that are more special attack reliant are going to have a slightly better time.

I'll use Charizard as an example.
Against Little Mac, I'd probably stick to default. Flame Thrower and the huge knock back from Flare Blitz are helpful with that match up.
Against projectile heavy characters, like Samus, I like to run Fire Fang (instead of flame thrower) to bait rolls and air dodges and Dragon Rush (over flare blitz) to have an option to punish samus every time she fires a missile.

So my performance as Charizard, theoretically, would be considerably better if I was allowed to shuffle my customs. Players that know I usually run a 2311 custom on Charizard wouldn't get a big advantaged hard counter picking characters that my custom struggles on, like Little Mac.


A few other examples off the top of my head:

• Link may not always want the gale boomerang, as characters like Little Mac can ride the breeze right into Link's face
• Ganondorf enjoys a custom down-b (Drop Kick) that gives him an anti-projectile option, but the other 2 options are generally better against characters without projectiles
• Rosalina may prefer teleporting Luma over Luma launch for characters that prefer to stay away from her
• Greninja may prefer fast shadow sneak (fixed distance, instant activation) for fighting projectile heavy or keep away characters

If Nintendo didn't make it so damn inconvenient to access the customs, I don't even think there would be as much debate on using them. So far nothing has proven to even close to overpowered in the alternate customs with the possible exception of G&W extreme judge. Even extreme judge carries a pretty hefty penalty and seems unlikely to get someone all the way to grand finals.

 

[DunnoBro]

will be at the top of both tiers, if they made 2

Not so sure, diddy isn't helped much by customs at all. It took a while for us to realize diddy's power even with a competitive scene, with his customs as bad as they are, I think a new challenge to the banana throne could arise, equipped with op customs.

 

[adamlon1]

It depends on what the official tournament rules will be if Customs are allowed then it will affect tier lists and most likely bump up certain characters such as Palutena and several others however I do not see it being as big of a problem as some dramatize it as just consider the benefits and negatives of each custom move and look at how it will affect matchups and stage control.

 

[Raijinken]

It depends on what the official tournament rules will be if Customs are allowed then it will affect tier lists and most likely bump up certain characters such as Palutena and several others however I do not see it being as big of a problem as some dramatize it as just consider the benefits and negatives of each custom move and look at how it will affect matchups and stage control.

Pretty much. Most of the "top" characters don't seem to benefit very well from their customs, which would imply that allowing them would result in a greater level of over-all balance. They're only four moves out of roughly 27 (not counting different charge levels and multihits as separate moves) per character, and really take virtually no effort to factor in to your matchup knowledge. A recovery type may be changed slightly, or you may have to rethink a punish, but especially if they're incorporated in some way like the Custom Moveset Project where both players enter the match with knowledge of the custom moves being used, there's no surprise factor to a practiced and experienced player.

 

[Jebus244]

I don't think customs should be allowed at all. Except with Mii's, but even then I only think they should be allowed to make the most balanced version of the mii, and the particular moves will then become standard.

For the rest of the characters, it could be argued that certain customs will make a character more balanced. In that case, that moveset could become standard, but that presents a problem.

Setting a standard is very important and what's wrong with the standard presented when you first play the game? The fact you need to grind for a ridiculous amount of time to unlock all the customs, I feel it's best to simply ignore them. It will make it that much more difficult for new players to get into the competitive scene somewhere down the road when they learn that Ganon is only playable with "this specific" moveset, and they now have to grind to unlock those specific customs. Ridiculous.

Aside from easy character and stage unlocks that you can get in literally a few hours after you start the game, the rest of the game should be ignored when tournaments are concerned. Just my opinion though.

 

[M15t3R E]

There will either be 2 tier lists or if customs become the only way to play there will be just 1 and custom movesets will affect tier list placing of each character depending on which custom movesets are most commonly seen and successful.

I don't think customs should be allowed at all. Except with Mii's, but even then I only think they should be allowed to make the most balanced version of the mii, and the particular moves will then become standard.

For the rest of the characters, it could be argued that certain customs will make a character more balanced. In that case, that moveset could become standard, but that presents a problem.

Setting a standard is very important and what's wrong with the standard presented when you first play the game? The fact you need to grind for a ridiculous amount of time to unlock all the customs, I feel it's best to simply ignore them. It will make it that much more difficult for new players to get into the competitive scene somewhere down the road when they learn that Ganon is only playable with "this specific" moveset, and they now have to grind to unlock those specific customs. Ridiculous.

Aside from easy character and stage unlocks that you can get in literally a few hours after you start the game, the rest of the game should be ignored when tournaments are concerned. Just my opinion though.

No one will have to grind to unlock all the customs. There are already efforts to bring custom movesets to tournaments in a time efficient and easy manner. Take a look at this thread.

 

[Jebus244]

No one will have to grind to unlock all the customs. There are already efforts to bring custom movesets to tournaments in a time efficient and easy manner. Take a look at this thread.

Oh wow, ok. I'm not opposed to this, but I won't be upset if it's not adopted.

 

[M15t3R E]

Oh wow, ok. I'm not opposed to this, but I won't be upset if it's not adopted.

It probably will be but it could take some time. I for one think the metagame will benefit by allowing players to use different versions of the same character.