Crouch Canceling in PM, Melee only mechanics or Melee+Brawl mechanics?

[TylerX5]

I know that CC in Melee reduces the knockback by 1/3 (by multiplying the KB formula by 2/3), I also know that in brawl Crouch Canceling reduces the hitlag by 33% ( the frames where a character is frozen in place after being hit). Does PM remove the Hitlag reduction mechanic from brawl? If it does not then is it possible this happens: CC reduces KB, which reduces the hitlag, which is further reduced by the Brawl hitlag reduction mechanic giving the CC player a little more frame advantage in PM than in Melee.

I know a lot of people coming from Melee complain about CC in PM even though the KB reduction formula is exactly the same (as far as I know), so I'm wondering if it's possible that maybe this is the monkey wrench PM's CC mechanics that ppl notice but can't put their finger on?

 

[tauKhan]

Even if it was, the effect would be pretty minimal. It would give like 1-4 frames more fa, while land canceling stun is often in the range of 30+ frames.

 

[TylerX5]

Even if it was, the effect would be pretty minimal. It would give like 1-4 frames more fa, while land canceling stun is often in the range of 30+ frames.

1. What's Land canceling?

2. 1-4 frames of advantage is plenty to pull out a jab (most of which come out on at least frame 3) to interrupt someone's next attack. Also there are a decent amount of grabs that come out in 7 frames that with a 4 frame advantage will trade with a 3 frame jab coming from a 4 frame deficit.

 

[tauKhan]

It's what happens when you really cc an upwards sending attack that doesn't cause knockdown. You'll go aerial from the attack and asdi it to land on the ground. Then landing animation will take place and replace hitstun. This is why ccing is so effective, not because crouching cuts hitstun by 1/3, though that helps when you can't asdi down to land cancel. On that scale 1-4 frames means nothing.

 

[TylerX5]

Frankly I think youre underestimating what 1-4 frames does to game feel. Ask any Melee player what they think of PM and they'll tell you something along the lines of it feels sticky to move. As we all know this is because of the frame delay in momentum changes. 1-4 frame differences in frame advantage is pretty bad when standards are that high. That 1-4 frames is enough to determine whether an attcker can reposition themselves or be punished.

 

[tauKhan]

Okay, I didn't actually think this through: Even if the 1-4 frames save is really small compared to the save you get from land cancel on hitstun, it still would mean something, because the advantage you gain isn't equal to the frames saved on hitstun, since your opponent doesn't have hitstun, but only usually a lot shorter end lag of a move. For example a fox nairing your crouch would probably mean that he has endlag of about 10 frames, ( I expect he doesn't land immediately), and it takes 4 frames for you to land, and you normally save about 3 frames on hitlag. In this scenario 1-4 frames obviously means a lot.
Though I think pm has only the melee hitlag reduction of 1/2, because that existed in melee as well.

There is one significant change to ccing in pm though: You can now dash out of initial crouch. This means that you can easily dash straight out of cc to punish from a longer range. In melee it was very difficult not to crouch after land canceling, because you need to hold down on the last frame of hitlag. Then you would have to wait for 7 frames of initial crouch after the landing before you could dash unlike in pm where you can dash immediately anyway.

 

[DrinkingFood]

CCing while not actually crouching is just ASDIing down into the ground when you get hit to cancel the hitstun by landing, it's better called pseudo CC, and I think it's probably what this thread is more talking about in the last couple posts. It has 4-6 frames of lag (depends on the character's empty landing lag animation, which is what's used), not 1-4. Misread posts, derp
Also could be wrong but I'm pretty sure melee also had reduced hitlag when you CC. It wouldn't make a difference anyway since just about anytime you pseudo-CC a move you have frame advantage and will be able to punish. It would make the frame advantage greater by like 1-2 frames depending on the strength of the hit, but that's not too big a difference when you're already +3 at the least, and that's only for the fastest aerials landing-lag wise, when hitting the frame before landing. CCing grounded moves or slower to land aerials puts you at much larger frame advantage, to where a couple frames difference from reduced hit lag would be negligible.

Besides, complaints about CC in this game are usually to the effect of being to CC to very high damages or against stronger moves, not about how easy it is to punish afterwards.

 

[tauKhan]

CCing while not actually crouching is just ASDIing down into the ground when you get hit to cancel the hitstun by landing, it's better called pseudo CC

I disagree strongly with this notion, because it gives the idea that crouching is actually important. Land canceling the stun is the important part which actually gives you the opportunity to punish. Crouching gives you very slight advantage in comparison. I agree that the two things should be separated. I would call them crouch reducting and land canceling. It's stupid to call the better part of ccing a pseudo cc. When players talk about ccing they usually mean holding down regardless of if they can actually crouch or not. ASDI down is the canceling part. Crouching just helps you to cc at higher percents. It actually deters ccs at low% because of sakurai angles.

 

[DrinkingFood]

What lol
You do realize pseudo just means "fake" right?
As opposed to crouching to reduce knockback by 1/3, which is true CCing
That's all it means, any weird connotation you want to attach to the word "pseudo" here and contrast with the effectiveness of the the maneuver is irrelevant

 

[tauKhan]

What I mean is that reduction of knockback is not important, the "true cc". Land canceling stun is important and that's what players actually mean. You can't cc counter attack with kb reduction, you can with land canceling stun. Like we don't call crouching a falco dair a true cc, do we? We call them unccable, even though the kb reduction still applies.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I'm aware of that, you aren't telling me anything new.
All I ever said was that ASDI-down to land-cancel hitstun is not true CCing. It's better to differentiate them on what they actually are, it's bad enough that so many players don't even realize there are differences between the ways you can "CC" to the point that players that play solely on feel have a hard time getting points across or having things explained to them.

 

[tauKhan]

Okay yeah I want them differentiated too. But I hope you see that players usually mean the asdi down when they talk about ccing, otherwise they wouldn't say that spikes can't be ccd. I just think that by calling asdi pseudo-cc is bad because some players do think it's not very effective. Also it has nothing to do with crouching so I would rather just call it land canceling.