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Critique my ****ty Fox (vs. Jiggs)

52pickup

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Messages
27
Location
Katy, TX
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd-EH2VEyqw (only first three games)

WAH DO? Things I shouldn't be doing? Things I should be doing? Things I should do better (like running upsmash or upthrow>upair) because they get lots of mileage, and therefore should put tech practice into? How to approach? How to play defensively? How to fish for KOs at high %s?

Thanks in advance! :b:
 
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Diana's Safe Landing

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 2, 2014
Messages
186
Location
Corvallis, OR
At percents where u-throw uair doesn't work anymore I think the following are the best ways to kill puff:

jab-->usmash

drill-->jab-->usmash

If they're too high percent for jab to combo into usmash you can start doing:

jab-->bair/uair (nothing crushes their soul harder than jab upair :smash: this combo guaranteed to make them realize their character isn't viable in this meta)

drill-->jab-->bair/uair

You can always fish for bair to get high percent KOs as well, just like on any other character except it kills puff even earlier. Something I like to do in this MU is at around 80% start pressuring them with a LOT more uairs in neutral because if they just get touched at all or shield poked its an instant death, but like with everything don't be overtly predictable with it (although I think you can get away with a lot in this MU).

hope this helps gl!
 

zero sum

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 5, 2014
Messages
144
ok i've been playing for only ~3 months so maybe this isn't too valid and you're certainly doing better than i would but here's some stuff that you should consider along with diana's safe landing's input!

you have pretty good movement but i think you should probably mix up your approaches and laser a bit more. you seem to be throwing out full hop bairs frequently with the intent of walling puff out and, while that's fine in certain scenarios, i think it got to be a little predictable at times. running in with shield is really good against puff and i didn't see you really do that often and you can usually punish her afterward if she swings. mixing up short-hop and full-hop aerials also seems pretty effective to me. dash-dancing a bit more seems like it could also be pretty helpful!

also, i noticed that you just typically grabbed puff as a rest punish at low percentage few times and i don't think that's the optimal punish, somewhat corroborated by the fact that you didn't get any mileage off of it. falling up air is really good in that scenario, especially at low percents (like i'd say up to 20–30 but i don't know the numbers off the top of my head) since you can almost always follow up with at least one other aerial, usually a nair or a bair.

also some things i'd recommend: try getting some puff practice in with a friend if you can since it'll help you tremendously with the matchup and learn when to expect grabs from puff since you missed the di on a couple crucial uthrows! additionally, try looking at mango vs hbox videos—mango's absolute mastery of the matchup means that he serves as a great example of things that you should do. i'd recommend watching his evo sets with hbox. leffen and armada (as fox) seem to be good at the matchup too, so it's worth taking a more in-depth look at some of those sets and seeing what you can take away from them!
 
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52pickup

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Messages
27
Location
Katy, TX
Thanks for the input both of you! Both were very helpful comments. :) Still open to more suggestions from anyone!
 

Itrodem

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 11, 2015
Messages
12
Location
Canada
My biggest piece of advice for you is don't let Jiggs control the tempo of the game. The best way to do this is by using lasers. In the words of Jman, "Use the gun".
Make her play your game, at your speed. I recommend that in this matchup that you just play a runaway fox and shoot lasers to rack up damage rather then going in like you would against other characters for 2 reasons. 1) It allows you to rack up damage safely since Jiggs has difficulty catching up to Fox do to her slow movement speed, and 2) It force Jiggs to aproach you rather then the other way around. Once you get the Jiggs to around 60-80% start going in as it'll only take a handful of strong attacks to KO Jiggs by then, dpending on the stage.
As fun as it is going in all the time with Fox, againt characters like Peach and Jiggs the best thing to do is to just slow the game down and shoot the gun.
 

Mikkelmann

Mentally Untouchable
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
772
Jiggs Up throw to rest can be very devastating to fast fallers but at the start if you DI to the platform and tech you would have been fine. And when punshing rest at the start instead of doing up throw up air just u smash it's a lot more reliably (I'm not saying don't punish with up throw, u air i'm just saying in times like that u smash would have been better. When you up throw up air does not work anymore try doing what Diana's Safe Landing said.

At percents where u-throw uair doesn't work anymore I think the following are the best ways to kill puff:

jab-->usmash

drill-->jab-->usmash
Laser a bit more cause some times you can just end stocks by lasering a puff to 60 and just up smashing them or up throw up air. I'll edit this later when watch it some more.
 

SuperShus

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
267
Location
MD/VA
Slippi.gg
East#694
Vs Jiggs is just dd and shoot lasers. uthrow uair or usmash when it'll kill. Prolly fox's simplest mu. Not easiest, but simplest.

Never do anything near jiggs that will result in you getting uthrow rested. Don't stand there and pillar on her shield because you'll get grabbed, don't run up and shine into nothing because down + b plus get uthrowed means no di -> rested.

This mu is pretty pure mind games and spacing. I really like it. Be kinda patient. Jiggs sucks at approaching so if you're ahead camp - some, also mix it up because you don't want jiggs reading you. Make sure you're aggressive at least 20% of the time or she'll be wrecking you out of dd and lasers: the game.
 

EWC

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
651
Location
norcal
vs jiggs specifically you need to practice upthrow upair. I saw you miss that several times in the first minute of the video and it is really important. You should know that the length of your throw animation depends on the weight of the character you are throwing, so vs jiggs the animation is really fast. This means that you can act much sooner than you think you can.

Other big thing I noticed in the first minute is that you spotdodge way too much.
 

Rob Taylor

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
24
Location
Sydney Australia, Cleveland Ohio, Cincinnati Ohio
All right so there's the obvious things like make sure your punish game is on point. Jab to kill moves, up throw up air. Get those down and suddenly you're a lot scarier to the puff. Stopping your run with a crouch and jabbing is very scary, because your left over momentum pretty much always leaves you in a spot to upsmash without having to dash or anything unless they hard DI/SDI the jab away from you, but you can still get a guaranteed upsmash out of that. Spacing jabs makes your neutral and shield pressure game much scarier for the puff because there's not much she can do if you're spacing properly.

You were pretty decent at comboing with nair but that leaves puff horizontally with you and up throw up air forces her to be above you, and while she can spend a bunch of time above you stalling she still has to come down eventually and she's pretty weak when she lands because of her low priority beneath her.

Your neutral needs a lot of work. Your main strategy against puff was shoot the gun, which isn't necessarily a poor strategy but you want to shoot the gun to force puff to approach you through center stage and not to force her to approach you while you're by the ledge. Most of the time when you shot the gun you were actually cornering yourself, and the puff got a ton of mileage from that because your way of getting back center stage after that was go around on platforms or roll behind her. There were a couple of times when you'd roll behind her and then immediately run to the other corner and start lasering and let her corner you again. Try seeing if you can crouch cancel a forward air, wavedash out of shield to take back space, back up even further off the ledge to get her to whiff something, etc. Towards the end of the stadium game you started playing this a lot better and also walling her out once she got forced to the ledge, which is good and payed off well for you even though you lost the game still. This was pretty much because after you shot a few times you would nair her between her aerials, got some damage off of that, and then forced her to try to get through your back air. However, you can't just stay in once place and back air, because puff does have ways of getting through and hitting you out of it, but you can back air once or twice to force her to move in one direction and then punish that. Act like you're giving her some space back but being prepared to hit her when she tries to take that. Try to do that without overextending, and if she doesn't commit to taking the space or backs off soon after she tries to take it then it's safe to back up a little more and shoot the laser. Shoot it just once or twice, just enough to remind her that she always does have to approach you, but not enough to actually let her get substantial control of center stage.

You did all of this better on Yoshi's, except when you did laser you were either way too close or ended up leaving yourself in an awkward position (eg in your shield with your back to her). It's possible to laser on Yoshi's but it's hard to do it safely. It also felt like you were a lot more comfortable using the platforms to get in and threaten her when you didn't have control of the stage. On Yoshi's you would return to center stage using the top platform a lot, which is pretty difficult for Puff to actually be able to punish, while on Battlefield a lot of how you'd return to center stage would just be in a pretty predictable path over the side platform and usually fall down with an aerial after that, which is typically not safe if you whiff that close to someone. It's okay to not throw out any attacks and just take the stage back in that situation, the aerials should really only be used if she's trying to go in that direction as well. You can also go to the top platform again and use that as a way to force her to give up center stage. Puff usually has to overextend to get to the top platform so going up there while she's chasing you can generally give you a hole to get down and somewhere safe. You did this once or twice on Battlefield and you definitely got a kill from her overextending once.

Overall the match up is really broken in Fox's favor, but on Stadium and Battlefield you weren't playing enough to your strengths and were really putting yourself in some poor positions and getting out of them in a way that was pretty easy to punish. I think if you can iron those habits out you should be able to get sets off of this guy, because the game on Yoshi's showed that he wasn't really outclassing you and able to read your every approach, just his gameplan was countering yours on the other stages.
 
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