Countering Kirby's "UP + A" Jab

[FalconsTalon]

I've been playing since the beginning, and can use Cpt. Falcon as fast as the console will allow and am familiar with advanced techniques including DI. The only road block is when playing a friend of mine -- countering Kirby's up-jab which locks me in until nearly 100%.

Our settings are usually 50%, very low items, handicap lvl 1 and Kirby's Dreamland. I know I could change these settings and possible mitigate the problem by choosing a higher percentage (thereby causing higher float after just one of his jabs and allowing escape/attack) but I want to win during "house rules."

Also, I know if I was 10X faster than him I could avoid that conflict all together - but he's a decent player even without spamming this jab. I can't seem to get a spike off before I'm hit up in the air again. So am I missing a DI tactic during the initial "uppercut" ?

Has anyone struggled with this while using Falcon or similarly weighted character?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Wenbobular]

Uhh, most of us play on normal settings.
Kirby's uptilt is still amazing at 100% though. Learn to work around it.

 

[†¹Ãgøn¥¹†]

If you get hit by kirby's utilt 'till 100% then I'm sorry but, you don't know how to DI. =)

 

[Skrlx]

can you like stop using those noob settings and go for no items normal damage NORMAL w/e you changed?

that would help your gameplay.

 

[Wenbobular]

If you get hit by kirby's utilt 'till 100% then I'm sorry but, you don't know how to DI. =)

He's playing on weird settings.

can you like stop using those noob settings and go for no items normal damage NORMAL w/e you changed?

that would help your gameplay.

Let him play how he wants

Although you should try learning how to DI it, not that I've tried it on 50%.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

don't get hit by kirby's up tilt if you're using captain falcon. If the kirby player is good one up tilt should lead to large damage or a death setup off the edge.

I would imagine it's worse at 50% settings. Try countering with jigglypuff who has her own up tilt, the drill the up tilt the upsmash.

Honnestly if you find yourself getting trapped by up-tilt you should

a) learn to DI better, this applies to everybody learning to be good at ssb64 including veteran smashers. You can always improve your DI in my opinion, it takes practice and experience.

b) Use a lighter character, because honnestly good DI will only do so much when kirby is using uptilt on link fox falcon yoshi dk and so on, you should expect massive dammage.

 

[Daedatheus]

On 50%, obviously Kirby's broken up-tilt is going to give you massive damage when you play as a heavy character. Use a lighter character, DI more effectively, and play on NORMAL damage settings. Those are the only suggestions I can really give you.

I'm not sure why you guys play on 50%. I have no problem with it, but I imagine it must change the game quite a bit. Seems it makes moves like Kirby's uptilt ridiculously broken, though, and that to me doesn't sound fun at all. All a guy has to do is land one uptilt then keep tapping a button to get you to 100% damage? That takes zero skill and honestly I would not find that fun at all, to do or to have done on me. Maybe your friend is too concerned about winning but missing out on the bigger picture of this game... FUN? I'm willing to bet he'd be against playing on 100% damage after seeing how easily he can pwn with kirby on 50%.

Anyway don't worry about it too much since that n00b tactic will only work so well on 50% damage... It still works very well on 100% but I wouldn't call it a n00b tactic at that point, just effective damage racking, which should be followed up by aerials -> smash. But you should mostly focus on where and how this person is employing the kirby uptilt, and avoid it, get your hits in carefully. Playing against a Kirby like that is often just a serious psychological battle of patience. Get your hits in safely - although it might take a while - and employ new approaches and fake outs that make the uptilt seem to be useless.

When Kirby is on the ground, do NOT attack him from above. Go for his sides!

 

[Lawrencelot]

Kirby just owns falcon, but if I read correctly you are trying to do a dair when being juggled? Don't do that, DI to the side and get away from kirby whenever you can. When kirby is spamming uptilt you should do an attack in front of him. Dashdancing is an important technique to avoid running into his uptilt.

 

[FalconsTalon]

First off, I want to thanks a lot for all the responses. I belong to several forums from political to automotive, and this was probably the fastest, thorough response I've received in a while.

@Everyone: Should have pointed out more clearly that I only really use Captain Falcon. I guess I don't play it quite enough to want to master other characters. Also, the reason we use 50% was because back when we were "challenging" ourselves against the computer we figured it would be the hardest setting against level 9 characters and would allow us to get better at jabs and combos rather than just spikes and edge-guarding.

@†¹Ãgøn¥¹†: Please elaborate. Is it possible to effectively DI while setting are at 50%, or would I have to be at 100%?

Is it possible to "downwardly" DI enough to roll out after 1 jab?

@Daedatheus: I think he wouldn't mind playing on any setting, he thinks he's a lock to beat me now regardless. Your right about the patience and attacking from sides. It seems when I do this, as well as a little dashing and fast-falling - I not only rack up his percentage faster than he does mine, but he seems frustrated and off his game. For example, he'll resort to his "brick" (down + B) while in the air - which can be game over for him.

His edge-guarding can still be a little tough though especially if I'm low on the platform when getting back.

 

[infernovia]

I highly suggest playing on regular settings.

I run into the same problem. I just try to di upwards against bad Kirby's because they go for an extra utilt which allows me to break free. But yeah, this is a hard match.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

at 50% damage ratio can't falcon continualy fthrow people for awhile?

 

[infernovia]

Nope, they don't go high enough.

 

[FalconsTalon]

at 50% damage ratio can't falcon continualy fthrow people for awhile?

Yeah, you can against computer but humans can roll out. Plus I don't want to spam even if he does.

 

[NixxxoN]

Play on regluar settings, and learn how to use some other characters besides Falcon. Falcon is crap against Kirby, you'll always struggle to beat him.
I find for example Mario and Ness good against Kirby.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Play on regluar settings, and learn how to use some other characters besides Falcon

What a waste of typing, he already pointed out that he wants to beat his friend at the "house" rules. I love house rules, I used to play normal settings but with all items that could be THROWN on, the rule was no using items, only throwing them, and no bob-ombs obviously I hate those things unless its ******** ffa time.

Also he pointed out that he mains captain nipples. All in all, Dreadatheus had the best post here, which I will now QFT.

On 50%, obviously Kirby's broken up-tilt is going to give you massive damage when you play as a heavy character. Use a lighter character, DI more effectively, and play on NORMAL damage settings. Those are the only suggestions I can really give you.

I'm not sure why you guys play on 50%. I have no problem with it, but I imagine it must change the game quite a bit. Seems it makes moves like Kirby's uptilt ridiculously broken, though, and that to me doesn't sound fun at all. All a guy has to do is land one uptilt then keep tapping a button to get you to 100% damage? That takes zero skill and honestly I would not find that fun at all, to do or to have done on me. Maybe your friend is too concerned about winning but missing out on the bigger picture of this game... FUN? I'm willing to bet he'd be against playing on 100% damage after seeing how easily he can pwn with kirby on 50%.

Anyway don't worry about it too much since that n00b tactic will only work so well on 50% damage... It still works very well on 100% but I wouldn't call it a n00b tactic at that point, just effective damage racking, which should be followed up by aerials -> smash. But you should mostly focus on where and how this person is employing the kirby uptilt, and avoid it, get your hits in carefully. Playing against a Kirby like that is often just a serious psychological battle of patience. Get your hits in safely - although it might take a while - and employ new approaches and fake outs that make the uptilt seem to be useless.

When Kirby is on the ground, do NOT attack him from above. Go for his sides!

/thread is over

the reason we use 50% was because back when we were "challenging" ourselves against the computer we figured it would be the hardest setting against level 9 characters and would allow us to get better at jabs and combos rather than just spikes and edge-guarding.

It won't, it will confuse you. The more you play in normal settings and keep track of what you're doing, the more small essential things you're going to learn that there is no guide for. Things like which part of which hitbox knocks which opponent where at WHICH PERCENTAGE

you mess with the damage ratio and you're going to have to re-develop your whole mental game because you won't be able to go beyond basic combos without some heavy 1v1 practice time.

 

[infernovia]

Also, the game is just wayyy less fun. This makes edgeguarding way more important, unless you like 200% KO limit. It just slows the game imo.

 

[FalconsTalon]

It won't, it will confuse you. The more you play in normal settings and keep track of what you're doing, the more small essential things you're going to learn that there is no guide for. Things like which part of which hitbox knocks which opponent where at WHICH PERCENTAGE

Your totally right. I put the settings to normal yesterday and started playing. It was like playing a whole different game. And I was a lot better than I thought, usually defeating computer level 9 (and me level 1) three lives to one. I this was done without any major spamming like repeated throwing, up-smashes from below platforms, or taking advantage of computer's laggy recovery.

I'm using B-air's much more for edge-guarding, and up-smashes and F-air's for combos. I'm not being overly predictable with spikes unless going for the definite edge-guard kill and my "kick flip + kick flip + falcon grabber" combo is more consistent and controlled than ever.

I didn't mean for the thread to be a C. Falcon clinic for me, but I'll take all the advice I can get. Couple questions:

1. Isn't UP + A smash for Falcon really only useful when used after dashing under a platform, or maybe to start a high percentage combo - not really effective in low percentage juggling, right?
   
2. Why can't a spontaneous Falcon Punch be used in competitive play? I like to drop down in Kirby's Dreamland diagonally past the little platforms while I still have invincibility for a quick 25% if opponent is unprepared, if I miss I'll still be able to recover. Also seems to be a good finisher off a juggle combo, decent off a short hop against projectile spammers, and the best edge-guarder from certain angles.
   
3. How often do you guys edge-hop? I like to use it for a kick-flip under high percentages, and edge-guard B-air, and even a grabber against some characters.
   
4. Lastly, how is Z-cancelling useful for Falcon? I can't seem to see a difference of even a few frames when used with spike, Falcon kick or anything.

 

[Daedatheus]

1. Isn't UP + A smash for Falcon really only useful when used after dashing under a platform, or maybe to start a high percentage combo - not really effective in low percentage juggling, right?

Falcon's upsmash is THE best move you can land at low percents on virtually all characters. That, and fthrow(which is usually set up by hitting them with a shorthopped aerial). Take, for example, an easy way to rack some damage on Fox. From 0%, you can combo fox with 2 upsmashes, followed by uairs and whatever else from there etc. I would highly recommend watching videos of Falcon matches from good players. Superboom has a killer Falcon.

• Why can't a spontaneous Falcon Punch be used in competitive play?

ANYTHING can be used in competetive play, it's just that certain moves and tactics are highly situational. If you are predicting your opponent right left and center, and can call where they're going to be vulnerable enough to be hit with a spontaneous Falcon punch, then go for it. Unfortunately this chance usually never arises, but yes, the Falcon punch can be used as a combo finisher from Fthrow on certain characters at certain percents, as well as after uairs. Also, yes, at certain angles it's a great edgeguard.

• How often do you guys edge-hop?* I like to use it for a kick-flip under high percentages, and edge-guard B-air, and even a grabber against some characters.

Once again, this is situational. Is your enemy recovering from low and has a bad up+b, or is using a predictable recovery path with a good up+b (IE pikachu keeps up+b'ing directly over the ledge) ? Ledgehop dair can finish them off. Enemies recovering horizontally to the ledge can be ledgehop bair'd. Etc. Situational. Experiment, and WATCH VIDEOS of good players and note how they edgeguard.

• Lastly, how is Z-cancelling useful for Falcon?* I can't seem to see a difference of even a few frames when used with spike, Falcon kick or anything.

Bottom line for ALL characters. You should be z-cancelling ALLLLLL AERIALLLLSSSSS. Well, except Ness's uair and dair, which don't really lag, and might be annoying to z-cancel when DJC'd.

And specials (IE all the b-button moves) CANNOT be z-canceled. Only aerials can be canceled. If you're canceling properly, the difference in lag should be very obvious. To see this the best, practice z-cancelling Link's down-air. If you canceled it, Link is immediately standing upright again when he hits the ground. If you messed it up, he is laggily pulling his sword out of the ground.

Z-canceling your aerials speeds up your play, makes your character less vulnerable, gives you more offensive and defensive options, and COMBOING IS IMPOSSIBLE WITHOUT IT. You can't expect to keep up with good players unless you're always doing it. Not to worry, it becomes habit very quickly.

 

[Superstar]

I won't laugh at you because I'm not a ****, but some people will laugh at you because of the terminology. Moves in SSB64 are said like this:

u = up
f = forward
d = down
n = neutral
b = back

air = aerial
smash = smash
tilt = strong attack
throw = throw
B attacks are siad as B, UpB, and DownB.

So, you say uair [up aerila], fsmash [forward smash], stuff like that. Your kick flip thing is said as "uair + uair + UpB. It's just good to know.

Z Cancelling is only for physical moves [lol too much pokemon...non special aerials]. Also, make sure you're doing it right [just in case ]. It also depends on the move, you'll notice it more on some.

Spontaneous Falcon Punches are easy to punish. In 64, one mistake could mean a major combo, so it's best to use safer options. You can also do an easy 25%+ with a combo, and it's safer, so that's what you should go for. I've heard of fthrow->B working, but I can't get it mself, I don't use Falcon.

The rest, other people will be able to help you. But, what do you mean B for edgeguarding? Dair/Bair are much more useful from what I've seen.

 

[infernovia]

Ledgehopping to edgeguard is really good if you can force a low recovery. Bair and dairs are your best bet. Sometimes even uair (the ending tail of it). If someone can't sweetspot well, I stay above and just fsmash em off. Or dash attack.

Falcon punch requires a lot of mindgaming to hit. Dashdancing to shorthops falcon punches are awesome if the other person is not used to it. But outside of that, you won't hit it left and right. Just too long. There are some combos that end this way though, especially if the opponent has bad DI.

Z cancelling is awesome, for example, in dreamland, I use fullhop 2 uair, and it puts it on top of the platform. Before the uair even finishes, I z cancel and I can follow up even faster/get extra hits in. If I can get fair come really slow, captain only does the first kick, z cancel -> grab. Z-cancelling is something you should be doing regularly anyway. There is the regular Dair (really late so you land it before the move finishes)-> z-cancel -> usmash.

Usmash is the best option falcon has. I think in 50%, they just don't go high enough, but at 100%, you can get 2 juggles on most char and 3 on others. I mean, ignoring the uair.

 

[Lawrencelot]

What Daedatheus said. Let's see if there's still something left to add... oh yeah, when you're opponent has bad DI or just messes up three upsmashes are possible from 0%, else it's usually 2 for normal-weight chars. Follow with lots of upairs (no need for Z-cancel in this basic combo) and finish with upB. That's Falcon's basic combo, or start with throw + shorthop fair + throw instead of upsmash.

 

[Jo3y]

Call him a ***got for using kirby...

 

[Surri-Sama]

Call him a ***got for using kirby...

Good call, if you cant beat'em, insult them for your failures

 

[FalconsTalon]

@Daedatheus + infernovia + Lawrencelot: Thanks for all the advice. I was definately wrong about Falcon's upsmash and I seem to be gaining some speed with z-cancel. I've also been trying to gain some mastery of both finisher and "percentage-racking" combos.

@Superstar: Thanks, I'll try to come correct - but I don't hold much pride in my SSB64 lexicon. The game's good for a couple hours here and there, but its hardly my religion.

@Everyone: Why is Falcon's A "tilt" (happy Superstar?) considered weak or amatuerish? I like to use it at the end of his range against Kirby/Jpuff/Pika. But more so, I like to use it as a run-cancel while evading/defending. Any comments?

 

[Superstar]

Well, that was incorrect too. :D

A neutral attack is just called a jab. Which tilt do you mean, though? ftilt, utilt, or dtilt?

It's just standard jargon, so that everyone knows what you mean. upsmash was correct, but it can also be called usmash. Either upsmash or usmash is fine.

You mean B? Falcon punch? The problem is that it takes too long, and they could slaughter you, while you're doing it. It looks like you can do out of range, but good players don't get caught in such simple stuff. Falcon can do other nasty things that jack up damage much better.

Ever hear of a combo? Once you're good enough, they bring up damage better than almost any other move.

 

[Daedatheus]

Perhaps he means dash attack (pressing A while running)?

 

[Superstar]

Oh. It's not really considered anything then. I never hear of it.

 

[FalconsTalon]

Forward + A

 

[Daedatheus]

Forward + A

Yeah, a forward tilt or ftilt.

Falcon's tilts aren't considered bad. I and many others put his Falcon's forward tilt to VERY good use, pretty often. The best thing about his forward tilt is that you can ANGLE it. 3 ways - angled up, forward, and angled down. To do this quickly takes more controlled movement of the joystick so that you don't end up executing an uptilt or downtilt, but like everything else, you'll get used to doing it.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Well, that was incorrect too. :D

Ever hear of a combo? Once you're good enough, they bring up damage better than almost any other move.

You're being a d*** to this guy superstar lol, but at least giving him the right info.

He has a point though, Talon, we all use the same jargon here if you want our help.

Glosarry.

Aerials use the suffix "air" with the first letter of the direction

uair dair fair bair

The neutral aerial attack is called a "nair" or "sex kick" (don't ask)

Next the tilts, ftilt, utilt and dtilt. Straightforward, these are the "strong" attacks

The standing a attack is called a jab, and the running A attack is called the dash attack.

Usmash Fsmash and Dsmash should be quite obvious.

We also use the prefix "Sh" to stand for short hop, and you can add any aerial move as the suffix, for example

Short hop ---> up air = SHUAIR

Good combo to try on training mode in normal settings, falcon vs falcon or vs link or vs fox or vs yoshi or vs DK. Heavy characters to start. Hit your opponent with a fair and z cancel then grab them, they will be over 10% damage.

Fthrow ---> shuair - shfair off the edge - uair with double jump - up b falcon dive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV1XQHi5j8o The combo I described occurs at 1:17 in that video.

 

[Jo3y]

Good call, if you cant beat'em, insult them for your failures

my point exactly...
Sigh...
sarcasm doesn't seem to translate through text...

 

[Superstar]

I wasn't trying to be a d***, was asking if he heard the term combo being coined around elsewhere, but on second look, it DOES sound like I'm being a d***.

Dylan explained it WAAAAAAY better than I could.

Imagine me with a casual look saying that and you'll be fine. I sound much more serious on text than I really do.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

sarcasm doesn't seem to translate through text...

Lol I've seen that posted like 4000 times on this forum.

Dylan explained it WAAAAAAY better than I could.

I also sent him this giant PM, meh Ill post it here for you guys to work with.




Priority is KEY in competitive smash and upsmash has it with falcon, as you know you can cancel your run with an up smash and also up smash out of your shield.

This move will lead to up airs to start with, at a higher level youll want to use fairs and follow the opponents DI but for now go for the bread and butter up airs and up b, but try to mix in down airs as finishers off the edge or even to the stage and follow his tech. Techchase.

Use upsmash when you're close to your opponent, it comes out fast. After using one of them, you can start to up air lighter characters, jiggly ness pika luigi mario

On heavy characters (falcon can destroy them so badly) at low percentage you can use 2 or even 3 consecutive upsmashes and then begin your combo. Practice on training mode, get creative with all aerials. Use short hop up air.

You can combo into falcon punch, or use a random one when you have like.. 3 life advantage if you're arrogant, but it lags you and then you get hit. Falcon can be combo'd by any character with ease, be careful.

To falcon punch an opponent on normal settings, short hop, use down air ( Dair) and z-cancel the lag, if you hit your opponent when he is on the ground he will pop up, and around 60-100 percent you can either full jump and falcon punch, or if the opponent is at a higher percent you can risk a double jump to falcon punch or just double jump up b which should send them off the top on any stage.

You can also uair into falcon punch but thats a highly advanced skill, I can rarely do it in a match.

Its good on dreamland after the opponent dies and has those few seconds of flashing white and being invincible. If you grab the edge and bait your opponent you can edgehop into a fair or dair and grab them, throw them off the stage and go for a spike or creative edgeguard!

I like to edgehop and attack when I return to the stage when im on the edge rather than risk rolling or using a recovery attack which is obvious and can be easily countered with a simple down smash.

Be creative with grabbing the edge and be CAREFUL. Falcon has hands down one of the worst recoveries as you well know.

tip : When you recover, always use your double jump, then falcon punch and hold upwards. You will get more horizontal recovery, and youll see the falcon punch is aimed upwards, use this "upwards" Falcon Punch/ forward throw heavy opponents and then jump and use it around 50-65%

Shorthop and fastfall all the time, don't make your attack's obvious, Space properly for all of falcon's ground game, and z cancel EVERY SINGLE AERIAL A MOVE.

 

[Surri-Sama]

my point exactly...
Sigh...
sarcasm doesn't seem to translate through text...

Who was being sarcastic?

 

[Daedatheus]

tip : When you recover, always use your double jump, then falcon punch and hold upwards. You will get more horizontal recovery, and youll see the falcon punch is aimed upwards, use this "upwards" Falcon Punch/ forward throw heavy opponents and then jump and use it around 50-65%

Hmm I never realized there was an "upwards" effect with Falcon Punch possible. Gotta try it out. I've never had problems landing fthrow-> Falcon Punch though...

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

vs Kirby's....I am also a fan of Pivot F-Smash....works well as a K.O. and down air combos.

Down air to Falcon punch I believe works around 80 vs Kirby.....not sure about the percent (for group version and I think like 100 for Aerial.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Falcon ***** kirby and ness if you space carefully. Mess up and you die.