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Countering Aggressive Players as Lucario

AkashSky

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
102
What's the best way to handle a player that's in your face all the time like some falco's fox's and mario's. I understand that people can play different characters different ways, so this isn't necessarily me asking for tips against characters, but if I see a person who is playing full out aggro, what are some techniques that I can use to zone them out and give me time to think about my next moves.

In addition, what are some good counter-pick stages that can force an aggressive player to play more defensively, or give me more options to zone out the opponent?
 

ManaX

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 10, 2010
Messages
100
Location
West MI
I find greenhill zone compliments agro play styles, but that's cuz I play hyper agro. I'd say pick a stage with static platforms.
 

bec

my tag is all lowercase
Joined
May 12, 2013
Messages
454
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texas
3DS FC
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i would say pokemon stadium 2 but that's apparently one of fox's best stages, so keep that in mind. i really like it even against fox, myself, it gives enough space to run away and avoid but it is a little big for when you do start getting combos. tbh metal cavern, wario ware, and other similarly sized stages are my favourite with lucario as of late. but i like to play aggressive at times so smaller stages are great. for countering aggro, go larger stages.
if they are legal, skyloft, distant planet and rumble falls are all great as well. rumble falls is nair-city for lucario.

aside from stages, work on your neutral and DD game as well. lucario's approach option are meh without aura and can be rather predictable even with aura so having a strong neutral/DD game can really help cause your opponent to mess up and whiff. after that, rush in and punish as hard as you can.
 
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Darkgun

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
215
Location
Nowhere Land, Tx
Roll a lot. Like all the time. In fact, move using rolls. It's foolproof.

Nah, but in all seriousness, it is probably going to be easier to play against an opponent that wants to be in yer face because, well, Lucario works best at that range. But I'm assuming that the issue is more that there's enough pressure from the other player that you've not exactly left stagger since they landed a hit in neutral, in which case you may be limited to either running away, pushing your opponent off of you with something like a retreating fair, or one of Lucario's rather lackluster OoS options (aerial such as dair, grab, WD, etc). Noting that one solid hit can put you back on the offensive, or at least back in neutral, a grab is pretty easy to land and will almost certainly setup for some solid punishes, or heck, just fthrow or bthrow them to get some breathing room.

Stage pick wise, for a starter stage, I would suggest Dream Land or Pokemon Stadium 2, since they've got a pretty wide stage, and some platforms to move about on. You might consider Smashville, but I would consider that more of a risk than the others. Avoid FD unless you're pretty confident in your punish game, the match will probably consist of you forcing yourself out of stagger straight into a punish string, and then getting put right back into stagger. For counterpick stages, Green Hill Zone for the platform and walls to help in mobility and recovery, respectively. Skyloft and Rumble Falls allow for lots of room to move, but that may come at the cost of punish game due to the strange platform heights/shapes. I would also suggest Dracula's Castle, as it is just a nice stage all around.
 

TheFoolishPhilosopher

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 2, 2013
Messages
65
Up-tilt. Seriously -- that's it.
Start using up-tilt. Someone runs at you? Instinctively up-tilt.
Juggles most fast fallers for a lot.
My game improved 100% whenever I realized up-tilt is THE counter-coverage move. Get too close and you get pushed right into combo range. After you've racked up some serious damage, get out and prepare for their next attack.
Lucario plays competitive smash brothers like most characters play boss fights: get hit a couple of times and you're out. You have to hit and run to be successful.

The more academic answer is probably to do some sort of double-wavedash f-smash punish, but in all honesty I do not think Lucario can outspeed a Fox that can waveshine on ground.
Again:
1) stand your ground
2) uptilt until they're about to get out of it
3) Initiate your comboes for as much as you can get
4) run away
5) repeat

Ideally, your finisher should be a nair or a well positioned dunk.
Though looking at this topic, you've got a lot of good answers above me, so if this doesn't fit your style or doesn't really sync with you, feel free to disregard the whole thing.
I've found that playing your own style is really the best way to go. Most fun and therefore most result because you're more excited and happy to play.
 

#HBC | Joker

Space Marine
Joined
Feb 2, 2012
Messages
3,864
Location
St. Clair Shores, Michigan
NNID
HBCJoker
3DS FC
1864-9780-3232
Utilt is extremely crouch cancellable. If they realize you are doing that all the time, they can and should be punishing you for it. It's great when it works, but when I go for DA>utilt>usmash>upb-cancel>nair, the utilt is generally where I get stuffed if they're expecting it, and know what to do.
 

AkashSky

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
102
I'll try a combination of all of your suggestions and see if any of them work for me. On another note, is aurasphere canceling every aerial attack move make lucario do an "L-cancel in air", like does it actually decrease the lag time and make lucario faster? If so, I may want to implement aura sphere cancelling into my game play to make it so I can attack faster and compete with the super aggressive players.
 

TheFoolishPhilosopher

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 2, 2013
Messages
65
Utilt is extremely crouch cancellable. If they realize you are doing that all the time, they can and should be punishing you for it. It's great when it works, but when I go for DA>utilt>usmash>upb-cancel>nair, the utilt is generally where I get stuffed if they're expecting it, and know what to do.
Hmm. I've never actually encountered that, actually!
I should practice against someone doing that.
Most foxes I play are all aggro and no spacing. Punishing is mostly just giving them a whack when they try to overaggress.
 

Risky

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 7, 2005
Messages
515
Location
Rhode Island
I'll try a combination of all of your suggestions and see if any of them work for me. On another note, is aurasphere canceling every aerial attack move make lucario do an "L-cancel in air", like does it actually decrease the lag time and make lucario faster? If so, I may want to implement aura sphere cancelling into my game play to make it so I can attack faster and compete with the super aggressive players.
You always want to ASC your aerials if you aren't canceling it with a different move.
 

AkashSky

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
102
You always want to ASC your aerials if you aren't canceling it with a different move.
Do you know how many frames lucario gains when ASCing aerials? I think its significant for nair, but for uair and fair i dont know if its worth.
 

Darkgun

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
215
Location
Nowhere Land, Tx
Do you know how many frames lucario gains when ASCing aerials? I think its significant for nair, but for uair and fair i dont know if its worth.
So, unfortunately, the only info I could find on how anything remained active was here, and since that is from 2.5b, it may no be completely accurate. However, if memory serves there have been no changes to Lucario's fair, thus it has a 40 frame move length (start to finish, so 30 frames of endlag at the latest, 36 at the earliest). Since ASC takes 16 frames to execute according to our local frame data thread, yes, ASC is significant. Up to 20 frames significant for offensive purposes, if I am doing the math correctly.
 

drsusredfish

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
859
Location
North Carolina
Do you know how many frames lucario gains when ASCing aerials? I think its significant for nair, but for uair and fair i dont know if its worth.
if you try to short hop fair > fair on an opponent it doesn't combo but if you short hop fair> ASC> fair> Lcancel its a legit combo on all characters.
 

Risky

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 7, 2005
Messages
515
Location
Rhode Island
Do you know how many frames lucario gains when ASCing aerials? I think its significant for nair, but for uair and fair i dont know if its worth.
ASC is significant frame advantage on every aerial. It is one of the reasons Lucario can nearly touch of death so many characters.
 

AkashSky

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
102
ASC is significant frame advantage on every aerial. It is one of the reasons Lucario can nearly touch of death so many characters.
Alright, if that is the case I am going to spam ASC train so I can do it each time I hit an aeiral.
 
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