Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Bruh for pika that's mostly QAC being able to be done anywhere on the stage.
That too
RIP grab
Fought pika on lylat onceRIP grab
I've tested this and no, it doesn't have a higher ceiling. It's the same as FD. However, since the stage is bigger the average hit is more likely to be towards the center stage so that does make a difference.
Ducking brings Kirby nowhere though. If you still space correctly he can duck all day and won't get anything done.
He's a counter because he eliminates all of her approach options except for dash grab. I don't see how forcing your opponent into using one of the most punishable moves in the game is getting you nowhere. Get the lead, duck, and wait for ZSS to approach. ZSS's mobility and range don't mean anything to a patient ducking kirby. As long as Kirby knows what her options are so he doesn't fall for obvious baits ZSS doesn't have much of an answer.
I believe it when I see it. Does sound plausible though.
Usmash- not an approach option.
What I listed aren't traditional approach options, however you're missing the context here. When your opponent starts crouching (and wants to keep doing it), your approach options become anything that either hit them from their crouch or force them to stop doing that. I explained it already. The simple range ZSS has over Kirby means you can safely pressure them away from their crouch and then have your entire moveset available to you until they can crouch again.
They aren't just untraditional, they unviable. You can't just run up and downsmash, boostkick, or tilt. You may have forced him out of a crouch in doing so but you've also just delivered yourself on a silver platter for a free punish. The range ZSS has over kirby doesn't mean anything when He's ducking. Nothing you listed can out range him from his crouching position. Not even Side B. A sweetspot at the end of the tether will net you nothing unless he forgets to block and if you're close enough to hit him with the early hitboxes he's either going to punish you OOS or make a get away while you're in cooldown. Kirby's not as fast as us and doesn't have as much range as us, but he's not that slow either and has pretty decent range. He's very capable of capitalizing on a frame advantage and he nets that pretty easily against a ZSS trying to approach with smash attacks and tilts.
Kirbys not punishing ftilt, dtilt, dsmash or side b unless he's really close. Ftilt angled down, dtilt, dsmash, and Side B do out range all of his moves even when he's crouching. How much rang do you think kirby has?
Didn't mean to imply that they don't have more range than him, obviously they do, but my point is that it doesn't net you any benefit. Kirby can most definitely punish tilts and dsmash. It's an easy short hop fair. How much range do you think we have? Side special depends entirely on the spacing, but either way the move is so laggy that if he doesn't get a punish he can reset easily.
You don't need to run up and dsmash or ftilt/dtilt, you can simply walk into just outside of Kirby's range and then start using your options. I'll just paint the picture here, and it's especially dedicated for the part I bolded. This is ZSS' dtilt range for instance:
Just going to say straight up that you keep making a lot of assumptions that are wrong. Spaced dsmash cannot be punished by anything in the game. It's not as safe as it was in Brawl but it's safe enough to not get punished by anything unless you use it right in the opponent's face letting them punish you with jabs (which you never should considering the move's long range). Nair also beats anything Kirby can do in the air and flip jump lets us escape his combos faster than he can escape or break ours. ZSS' bair also outranges just about Kirby's everything.
Where did you get some of this frame data? If kirby PS dsmash he gets 4 frames of advantage when he can move again. PS still gives you the shield stun and you can't walk or run out until after the regular sheild drop frames. Also If kirby misses the PS he's potentially giving zss frame advantage as the shield lock frames will continue after sheild stun.
I'm just gonna drop one question to all of this; how do you powershield 6 (ftilt), 8 (dtilt) and 10 (usmash) frame moves? Presuming you're not a flea, you don't.
?
Considering nair outranges most sword attacks in the game, what is proper spacing for Kirby then? His overall aerial mobility is worse and his range is shorter. He loses spacing in the air by default.
Kirby Frame data: http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU
If all you ever do is hit the shield button based on reaction to an animation you'll never perfect shield anything other than a projectile. You perfect shield 6 frame attacks the same way you parry any attack in any fighting game. An approaching ZSS sets up easy reads for a ducking kirby with simple options that cover everything ZSS throws at you.
http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-30#post-19312998
None of this changes the fact that ZSS retains more options relative to Kirby whether it's a crouching scenario or not. Kirby's only options while crouching that pose a threat to ZSS are well-used defensive options into punishes. Kirby puts out no offensive pressure while crouching unless you go right up into his face, and clicking shield in anticipation of an attack can be baited from Kirby just like any other time. "ZSS can take all her mobility and run around" is actually a perfect example to emphasize how badly this sort of "crouch camping" works. You can simply keep dashing towards Kirby over and over and eventually make it all the way and either:
Eh.. that shield info isn't about perfect shielding. It's relevant, but I think the point still holds that ducking generally gives kirby a frame advantage.
You can have more options but if they aren't good ones it doesn't matter and if your response to all of them is essentially the same there is little to no guesswork involved for you. It's simple really, Kirby ducks, he gets a frame advantage. He at least partially alleviates his most glaring weakness (approaching) and accentuates ZSS' (approaching and grabbing). Kirby's only options out of a crouch are well used defensive ones into punishes? That's literally the entire point of my post. Those well used defensive options trump our approaching options. Not sure why you're going into all of our possible movement options. Like I said in an earlier post, an actual game consists of baits, reads, and empty movements and isn't just kirby sitting there with ZSS walking up to him. So... congrats on tearing that straw man a new one!
Just post a video and be done with it.
All the PS information is exactly what I said he gains very little extra advantage when going for PS but serves to lose frame advantage for going for it. Also zss's jump height/speed and uair don't care about Kirbys multiple jumps.
Maybe I missed something in the link you posed but what I read was about shielding right after the PS window and not the PS itself? Even then, would kirby still lose the frame advantage? Dsmash would hit at frame 20, and ZSS first active frame is 42. So that means Kirby would have to be locked in shield for 22 frames for ZSS to have the advantage correct? So lets say you hit kirby on frame 4, the earliest you cant in shield lock. That means Kirby gets 3 frames of shields stun, plus the remaining 7 from shield lock, plus 7 frames for shield drop, plust 8 frames hit lag. 25 frames correct? So a 3 frame advantage if kirby chooses to drop shield though. As per the your link though, if Kirby chooses jumpcancel/roll/shield grab, he can act at the same time he normally would and still maintain frame advantage. Did I miss something?
