Could Nintendo possibly give us more options in Special Smash?

[Purple_Anteater]

The way I see it, there would be a second page of options for special smash, and on that second page there would be options for Smooth Lander, Hard Breaker, Shield Degenerator, Tough Edge, Anchor Jump, Dodgy Dodger, ect.

With the option to give everyone the custom badges without messing with the balance of the game, + custom moves, could potentially speed up sm4sh competitive game play.

What do you guys think? Would you like to see it? Would Nintendo even consider this kind of an update?

 

[Muro]

you can already get smooth lander easily, see here. What I would like is the option to play special smash online with friends. In any case having those badges + custom moves available through the options menu wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

[Purple_Anteater]

What I would like is the option to play special smash online with friends.

This would also be ideal. I overlooked that in the OP.

But yeah, smooth lander is easy enough to acquire. Its just that there are so many more badge effects that would be fun to use, but we're limited to 3 per character ATM. And even then, the character stats are going to be messed up. I think the Vanilla characters with all the "ideal for competitive" badge effects would be awesome and super fun to play.

 

[Muro]

.

read that thread, you can get -4a/+2d/+3s with items unlocked from the challenge screen so the stats aren't thrown out of whack (stat effects only become noticeable if the stat difference is >10, those stats are less than half of that).

Having more equipment slots and a competitive set of items would be preferable, but what we have is already good, I just wish I could play online :/

Custom moves are a pain to unlock though they should absolutely make an easier way to get them.

 

[Purple_Anteater]

read that thread, you can get -4a/+2d/+3s with items unlocked from the challenge screen so the stats aren't thrown out of whack (stat effects only become noticeable if the stat difference is >10, those stats are less than half of that).

Yes, but trying to get balanced stats with smooth lander, hard breaker, AND one more effect (be it a positive or negative effect) is nearly impossible. I also think heavy gravity screws things up, recoveries obviously, but also things like Charizard's SH nair won't auto cancel, and it makes going off stage for gimps/spikes too risky. Offstage play in sm4sh is the most hype thing about the game IMO.

 

[Muro]

Actually heavy gravity gimping recoveries is a good thing to me, dangerous offstage game is what's exciting and you can get good rewards from edge guarding, whereas now it's a bit hard to get gimps because everyone’s recovery is so good. I heavily disagree with the offstage game being hype in sm4sh, it's actually a big gripe I have. Different strokes for different folks I guess..
I haven't played around with charizard so can't really comment on that (I abhor slow characters).

 

[Purple_Anteater]

.

> offstage game is exciting
> disagree with offstage game being hype

k.

Anyway, with the Tough Edge badge activated i'd imagine gimps would become more common. And Anchor Jump is like HG except without completely ruining lots of recovery options. Less options = Less variety = Less exciting game.

 

[Muro]

> offstage game is exciting
> disagree with offstage game being hype

k.

Anyway, with the Tough Edge badge activated i'd imagine gimps would become more common. And Anchor Jump is like HG except without completely ruining lots of recovery options. Less options = Less variety = Less exciting game.

you kinda forgot the "smash4" in that second line, it's not hype in sm4sh, it's a lot of hype in melee, some of the gimps m2k and armada get are crazy, it's my favourite part of the game. Sure there are many ways to make the game more enjoyable, they could have made it completely different, I'm just saying one of them that works for me, wanna keep playing floaty go ahead. And that last analogy also doesn't ring very true, in heavy gravity you actually have to mix your options so as not to get gimped, instead of just going under the stage and up b every time. Most characters can grab the ledge without having to even spend a jump most of the time. If you enjoy that it's ok, but not everybody does.

 

[Raijinken]

That would be fun, but I don't expect it to happen.

I don't think the offstage game needs tweaking. It's plenty exciting and rewarding as-is, if you're brave enough to try it. And if not (or if you're playing one of the few spike-less characters in the game), well, maybe an exciting playstyle just isn't for you in this particular game.

 

[Purple_Anteater]

@ Muro

Im sorry, is this not the smash4 forum? When did we start talking about melee?

Smash 4 is not melee, Smash 4 will never be melee. If you want to play melee and you're playing smash 4, well i think you're playing the wrong game.

What i am suggesting here is a way to make Smash 4 more exciting, not to make it more like melee. Floaty can be fun too. Not every character needs to drop like a rock. Wario is a great example of floaty and fun. Jigglypuff too. Its just different, its not better or worse. Anchor jump is better than HG because it doesn't increase the weight of characters, or effect their jump height, it just makes them fall faster. Anchor Jump: 1.4x speed when falling.

Anchor Jump is everything you like about HG, minus the stuff that everyone else doesn't like.

 

[Muro]

@ Muro
Im sorry, is this not the smash4 forum? When did we start talking about melee?

You tried to make it sound like I was contradicting myself, I corrected you.

Smash 4 is not melee, Smash 4 will never be melee.

Damn right about that one.

If you want to play melee and you're playing smash 4, well i think you're playing the wrong game.

But I don't want to play melee. I want to play smash4 with smooth lander and heavy gravity.

What i am suggesting here is a way to make Smash 4 more exciting, not to make it more like melee.

Dunno why you got the idea that I want it to be like melee. I want it to have followups and gimps, which are gameplay features I enjoy.

Floaty can be fun too. Not every character needs to drop like a rock. Wario is a great example of floaty and fun. Jigglypuff too. Its just different, its not better or worse.

Sure, but if I don't like it that's a valid opinion too.

Anchor jump is better than HG because it doesn't increase the weight of characters, or their jump height, it just makes them fall faster. Anchor Jump: 1.4x speed when falling. Anchor Jump is everything you like about HG, minus the stuff that everyone else doesn't like.

well I didn't test it because I can't get it... Nerfing recoveries is a big thing for me so I doubt I'll like it as much. I'll try it out as soon as the RNG gods deem me worthy.

 

[Purple_Anteater]

@ Muro

Okay, i'm done with you. Please don't post in this thread again, You're clearly just trying to defend yourself at this point and not contributing to the topic.

 

[Muro]

Don't worry, I'm done too. BTW how is anybody gonna contribute to the topic? your thread basically comes down to this "Would you like to see it? Would Nintendo even consider this kind of an update?" yes and yes, there's no discussion to be had. If you're not willing to discuss gameplay mechanics or provide your own insight what are we supposed to discuss? What effects do you feel help the game? what effects do you think hurt it? Things like that.

 

[warriorman222]

Actually heavy gravity gimping recoveries is a good thing to me, dangerous offstage game is what's exciting and you can get good rewards from edge guarding, whereas now it's a bit hard to get gimps because everyone’s recovery is so good. I heavily disagree with the offstage game being hype in sm4sh, it's actually a big gripe I have. Different strokes for different folks I guess..
I haven't played around with charizard so can't really comment on that (I abhor slow characters).

Yeah, and in heavy mode, 60% of tge car is automatically ysusable by recovery alone. Example: DH goes down the whole time, MM goes like nowhere, offstage gimps are impossible, literally. Onstage gimps are uncounterable. Victory should be determibed by skill, not who gets knocked out of ledge sweetspot range first.

Besides, gimps are hard because can no longer nullfy 95% of the cast's recovery by grabbing a ledge. Rather, you work for kills now, something healthier to the meta.

 

[Muro]

Yeah, and in heavy mode, 60% of tge car is automatically ysusable by recovery alone. Example: DH goes down the whole time, MM goes like nowhere, offstage gimps are impossible, literally.

uh no? have you even tried it? Diddy Kong, DH and sonic get screwed royally, MM is still good though his recovery is tricky. The rest of the cast get a recovery nerf but are pretty useable. I'm fine with 3 of the most annoying characters getting their recovery nerfed. Offstage gimps are impossible? how? they're a lot more common... the player who got knocked offstage is actually at a disadvantage now because he has to burn his recovery options getting back, whereas in the current metagame he's mostly fine.

Onstage gimps are uncounterable. Victory should be determibed by skill, not who gets knocked out of ledge sweetspot range first.

keeping people from coming back is a skill...

Besides, gimps are hard because can no longer nullfy 95% of the cast's recovery by grabbing a ledge. Rather, you work for kills now, something healthier to the meta.

It comes down to this: should recovery be hard or should killing be hard? To me the recovering player should have to work harder to get himself out of trouble in which he got in by being outplayed.

 

[warriorman222]

uh no? have you even tried it? Diddy Kong, DH and sonic get screwed royally, MM is still good though his recovery is tricky. The rest of the cast get a recovery nerf but are pretty useable. I'm fine with 3 of the most annoying characters getting their recovery nerfed. Offstage gimps are impossible? how? they're a lot more common... the player who got knocked offstage is actually at a disadvantage now because he has to burn his recovery options getting back, whereas in the current metagame he's mostly fine.



keeping people from coming back is a skill...



It comes down to this: should recovery be hard or should killing be hard? To me the recovering player should have to work harder to get himself out of trouble in which he got in by being outplayed.

1. Customs does this fine without rendering 80% of characters useless. Customs dethrone all those characters, add variety, and like 30 or so characters are all toptier, extremely close to each other. This means lots of variety, less Diddy, and VILLAGER won't be the only character getting back onstage, unlike Heavy Smooth Lander.
2. Keeping people form coming back is a skill, but it makes the metagame more brainless. Whoever gets knocked off first loses because most character have laggy attacks preventing them from defense, and airdodging will usually kill you. There is no mixup, you just die against a player who knows what the word gimp means.
3. Neither are hard in this meta. You make recovery near-impossible(I know it's possible, but still...) and killing brainless. The recovering player should work harder, but they shouldn't auto lose offstage because they picked a character who uses momentum (DH, MM, DDD) for recovery rather than straight propulsion (Fox, Falco, Mario).

In the normal meta killing is not hard at all. gimps are even easier, people just don't go for them. But make a list of good character in Heavy/Smooth meta. I have tried it, and I hate it. You may like it, and that's fine. Actually that's good. But I don't, and there are a lot of people who don't. I don't mean to make you look excluded, but many competitive people here wouldn't like this, for many reasons.

And characters don't deserve be unusable for being annoying. Your logic there is flawed.

 

[Muro]

1. Customs does this fine without rendering 80% of characters useless. Customs dethrone all those characters, add variety, and like 30 or so characters are all toptier, extremely close to each other. This means lots of variety, less Diddy, and VILLAGER won't be the only character getting back onstage, unlike Heavy Smooth Lander.

Tiers will be there anyway, although I agree customs are a positive change to the metagame. They are not a fundamental change though, so the game won't be a lot different than it is. You're also overstating how much of a gimp HG is to recoveries. Most characters have such a good recovery that they still make it back most of the time, except now they're a bit more vulnerable to edgeguards. Recovery is insane in this game, HG nerfs it, and I like that it nerfs it, because IMO it's a change for the best. I wont deny that some characters get screwed, but by luck they're characters I don't care about because their play style is not appealing to me.

2. Keeping people form coming back is a skill, but it makes the metagame more brainless. Whoever gets knocked off first loses because most character have laggy attacks preventing them from defense, and airdodging will usually kill you. There is no mixup, you just die against a player who knows what the word gimp means.

No it doesn't make it brainless, gimps are still not free and there's a risk to going for them still. It just skews the balance from being on the recovering player advantage to being on the edgeguarder advantage. You'll have to mix up when to use your jump and your up B, you'll have to space right, you'll have to extinguish some of this options before being edgeguarded, you'll have to DI the hit that sent you off well in the first place, etc, instead of just hitting air dodge and being safe (and probably punish the edgeguarder after, which we see a lot) while still having another 4 recovery options left.

3. Neither are hard in this meta. You make recovery near-impossible(I know it's possible, but still...) and killing brainless. The recovering player should work harder, but they shouldn't auto lose offstage because they picked a character who uses momentum (DH, MM, DDD) for recovery rather than straight propulsion (Fox, Falco, Mario).

DDD? he recovers fine. Seriously, if you tried it like you said, you obviously didn't spend much time with it. You don't auto lose offstage, diddy, sonic and DHD are the only that get a big crippling nerf to their recoveries, the rest of the cast is fine although their recoveries are also worse, it's nowhere near the same level and a lot of characters still have hard to edge guard, great recoveries.

In the normal meta killing is not hard at all. gimps are even easier, people just don't go for them. But make a list of good character in Heavy/Smooth meta. I have tried it, and I hate it. You may like it, and that's fine. Actually that's good. But I don't, and there are a lot of people who don't. I don't mean to make you look excluded, but many competitive people here wouldn't like this, for many reasons.

And characters don't deserve be unusable for being annoying. Your logic there is flawed.

But if they're easy why don't people go for them? could it be because they're actually not that easy, and just staying onstage is a better solution? If you don't like it that's fine, It's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but just from the misinformation I get the feeling you didn't give it a fair chance. And it's fine if nobody else wants to play it. To me it matters that I'm able to enjoy this product I payed money for. I'm willing to bet there are more people like me though, and there would be even more if people tried it.

They are useable, they just suck. And it has nothing to do with logic honestly, it's just personal preference. One metagame has characters x and y as top tiers and another has w and z. I prefer the one where sonic, diddy and DHD suck.

 

[LimitCrown]

In Heavy Smash, I'm sure that some attacks are dangerous to use offstage like Fox's front air attack due to the increased falling speeds and gravity.

 

[Muro]

In Heavy Smash, I'm sure that some attacks are dangerous to use offstage like Fox's front air attack due to the increased falling speeds and gravity.

Yes this is also true, some attacks you can't use offstage unless you're reasonably high. I haven't played much with fox but I bet you can't run off fair with him.

 

[warriorman222]

Tiers will be there anyway, although I agree customs are a positive change to the metagame. They are not a fundamental change though, so the game won't be a lot different than it is. You're also overstating how much of a gimp HG is to recoveries. Most characters have such a good recovery that they still make it back most of the time, except now they're a bit more vulnerable to edgeguards. Recovery is insane in this game, HG nerfs it, and I like that it nerfs it, because IMO it's a change for the best. I wont deny that some characters get screwed, but by luck they're characters I don't care about because their play style is not appealing to me.



No it doesn't make it brainless, gimps are still not free and there's a risk to going for them still. It just skews the balance from being on the recovering player advantage to being on the edgeguarder advantage. You'll have to mix up when to use your jump and your up B, you'll have to space right, you'll have to extinguish some of this options before being edgeguarded etc, instead of just hitting air dodge and being safe (and probably punish the edgeguarder after, which we see a lot) while still having another 4 recovery options left.



DDD? he recovers fine. Seriously, if you tried it like you said, you obviously didn't spend much time with it. You don't auto lose offstage, diddy, sonic and DHD are the only that get a big crippling nerf to their recoveries, the rest of the cast is fine although their recoveries are also worse, it's nowhere near the same level and a lot of characters still have hard to edge guard, great recoveries.



But if they're easy why don't people go for them? could it be because they're actually not that easy, and just staying onstage is a better solution? If you don't like it that's fine, It's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but just from the misinformation I get the feeling you didn't give it a fair chance. And it's fine if nobody else wants to play it. To me it matters that I'm able to enjoy this product I payed money for. I'm willing to bet there are more people like me though, and there would be even more if people tried it.

They are useable, they just suck. And it has nothing to do with logic honestly, it's just personal preference. One metagame has characters x and y as top tiers and another has w and z. I prefer the one where sonic, diddy and DHD suck.

1. Well that's a big matter of coincidence. You wouldn't be liking Heavy Smash as much when your mains are Villager, DH, Brawler and MM.
2. Kills are brainless, not gimps. If you're knocked to the blastline you're probably dead because your recovery doesn't go far and high enough. Heavy doesn't reduce Recovery horizontal length, but it increases fallspeed way too much. I may be over exaggerating, but I personally don't like a large portion of the cast dying up to 50% earlier than their weight dictates. Not because recovery length, but fallspeed.
3.D3 was an example of a character who uses momentum, not one who loses hard from Heavy. Sorry. Hard to edgeguard recoveries? To me it's easy to edgeguard, but that may just be me.
4. I think gimps are easy, but again OPINIONS. Whether or not It got a fair chance, I think it' cool and maybe fun, but the metagame it causes I don't like. I didn't want to make it sound like you're the only one who likes this, it's simply that you're the only one who bother making reasonable arguments. And I've spent lots of time trying hard to ignore the idiots of both sides in pretty much everything.

Plus in the end, this is all opinion. People should try it and decide what they like.

 

[SpandexBullets]

You could implement 'hard breaker' and 'tough edge', but they're luxuries more than game changing abilities.
Still, I have tried them, and sweetspotting is a lot harder. Course, you can't edgehog (I still think that's a good thing...), but hardbreaker doesn't do a whole lot. Simply crouching has the same or even less lag. only useful if sliding grabs are problematic, but keep it in mind for some characters.
I think the two necessary effects are Smooth landing and Dodgy dodger (and possibly anchor jump, see below). DD halves the dodge time available to you, so you dodge faster. This can be a good or bad thing:

• Edge-guarding is easier to do and harder to defend from.
• Dodging on the ground, including spot dodging, have their frames halved.
• Punishing is easier as your dodges are almost instant, but similarly, it's easier to punish dodging.
• I have not tested this in depth, but have managed to neutralize all stats while still retaining these two effects. If you have any equipment that creates this effect, please test it as often as possible.

The most interesting effect I have heard about is anchor jump. That's what I want the most. It's not heavy, but it increases your falling speed by about x1.4
To me, this equipment is the key. This will change characters fundamentally. It's not SL+heavy gravity as it's not nearly as detrimental as heavy gravity (This setting just initiates fast falling the second your jump is over.)

*I really have believe that these effects can create a faster, more challenging game. I'm not trying to recreate P:M either, just a niche game-type.
Or, at the very least, something interesting. The equipment is in no way useless from my POV. Neither should we be ignoring custom equipment.

 

[Purple_Anteater]

You could implement 'hard breaker' and 'tough edge', but they're luxuries more than game changing abilities.
Still, I have tried them, and sweetspotting is a lot harder. Course, you can't edgehog (I still think that's a good thing...), but hardbreaker doesn't do a whole lot. Simply crouching has the same or even less lag. only useful if sliding grabs are problematic, but keep it in mind for some characters.
I think the two necessary effects are Smooth landing and Dodgy dodger (and possibly anchor jump, see below). DD halves the dodge time available to you, so you dodge faster. This can be a good or bad thing:

• Edge-guarding is easier to do and harder to defend from.
• Dodging on the ground, including spot dodging, have their frames halved.
• Punishing is easier as your dodges are almost instant, but similarly, it's easier to punish dodging.
• I have not tested this in depth, but have managed to neutralize all stats while still retaining these two effects. If you have any equipment that creates this effect, please test it as often as possible.

The most interesting effect I have heard about is anchor jump. That's what I want the most. It's not heavy, but it increases your falling speed by about x1.4
To me, this equipment is the key. This will change characters fundamentally. It's not SL+heavy gravity as it's not nearly as detrimental as heavy gravity (This setting just initiates fast falling the second your jump is over.)

*I really have believe that these effects can create a faster, more challenging game. I'm not trying to recreate P:M either, just a niche game-type.
Or, at the very least, something interesting. The equipment is in no way useless from my POV. Neither should we be ignoring custom equipment.

So hard breaker is is a take it or leave it kinda of a effect. I still think it wouldn't hurt to add. But tough edge could potentially create more off stage play, players might be more encouraged to go deep for the kill, instead of waiting on stage for the opponent to grab the free sweetspotted ledge, and then reading how he will get up.

Example of how Tough Edge game play might work:

Player A knocks Player B off stage

Player B wants to recover safely so he lines himself up for a sweet spot

Player A notices this, and punishes the predictable spacing of the recovery by going off stage for an aerial attack.

This could create more recovery mixups, like you pretend you're going for a sweet spot to bait something out and then counter punish, ect. More interesting ledge play wouldn't be a bad thing IMO. Especially in Smash4 where offstage stuff is more viable.

Anchor Jump + Smooth lander would add depth to the combo game and followups.
Dodgy Dodger would add more precision to air dodging and spot dodging. Make it less of a spam fest.
Shield Degenerator would make it so people are more afraid to hide in their shields. This might mean more rolls, but that's not necessarily a bad thing because the rolls will be more predictable. Plus shield breaks on people who play too defensively.

The only thing is, even if we had the ability to set all of these options on, would the competitive scene even take to it? Or would it just be a fun side thing? It might mess with the meta too much, it might be too BIG of a change at this point. Who knows? Are people more happy with the game as it is