Competitive Problems: Solutions?

[LiteralGrill]

(Since this bombed over on the Wii U boards and the fact that all the intense discussions always seem to happen here, I'm going to give this another shot.)​

Hey everyone, I've been reading through some very old threads, and it raise up some thoughts that I really want to discuss with you all. I have 8 points I'd like to discuss with you all, hoping to have a good discussion here.

- - -

1. People will be saturated with smash. Think of how many big name tournaments we have that everyone knows about, the numbers are staggering, not to mention the incredible number of smashfests that will pop up when the game comes out. (Brawl used to have stuff in places EVERY weekend and even in some places EVERY DAY O_O ) What do we do so people don't get too much smash and get sick of it never to come back?

2. People are going to get tired of losing to the same people. Let's face it, we'll have lots of new players eager to come in and prove themselves coming up against our greatest pros who are going to wipe the floor with them and wee'll see the same names topping tournaments everywhere. Why are people going to travel when they know AT BEST they might get something like 5th (which generally means no money). What do we do to try and keep and mentor those players to keep our scene strong?

3. Misinformation was and still is rampant for Smash. People not knowing things about stages or characters or spreading information that isn't true about various things to the point people believe it without question EVEN THOUGH IT ISN'T TRUE is still happening with things TO THIS DAY. We're going to have a brand new smash where tons of things will be moving around and for a while it's true that things will be fuzzy, but how do we combat this to make sure tons of wrong information isn't spread?

4. Tournaments take FOREVER. How can we try to speed up the process so people don't quit just because they don't want to stay up past midnight and go to work the next day because they entered a smash event?

5. How can we as a community outreach and advertise to reach potential players outside of our community better then we have in the past (as previously we've done so kinda poorly)?

6. How do we improve how we look to people outside of the FGC? How can we project what an awesome group we are and look respectable so we can attract more attention, more sponsors, and more players and fans?

7. How can we have more transparency at times? Tons of people look to backrooms to learn about matchups, tier lists, recommended rulesets, and a bunch more while others have these feelings like they are a "Smash Illuminati" and have no trust in them at all. How can we make it so people can feel more comfortable with the groups so the things they say and do hold more respect and can have people trust in what they say?

8. How are we going to form the Wii U and 3DS backrooms? Where do we start and how do we start?

- - -

Those 8 things I want to discuss as they can severely affect the possibilities for our future success. What do you all think?

 

[Burning Boom]

1. I think we'll have to limit the competitive scene a bit around release. We can't control private gatherings, but if we make sure that big tournaments aren't everywhere at release, people won't get sick of Smash. However, I still think this might be the hardest problem to solve. Either way, the people who are dedicated, will stay for the long haul.

2. Fortunately, this is a new game, so not as much of old skill will carry over, but even so, this is an issue. I guess we could make a tier list of players (have people enter their names here, we look up their stats, and the community decides, with new players starting at the bottom), and limit tournaments based on that, but that will probably insult people, especially the new players who go in thinking they're hot stuff.

3. Not sure if there's a way to avoid this. Whenever something gets as big as Smash, misinformation and rumors will become very prevalent, and there will always be people who think they know what they're talking about, but have no clue.

4. The 3DS version can help with that especially, as everyone has their own system and game, therefore we're not dealing with a limited amount of setups. Heck, if we did Single elimination, we could do all of the matches in a round at the same time, but that sounds a bit extreme.

5. I think that when members of the competitive Smash community go to other, more general forums/sites, we have to be less elitist. We tend to disrespect casuals for daring to share their opinion, and thus it's not very inclusive. Also, we need to start coming together a bit more for Sm4sh, as people see all of the Melee vs. Brawl arguments and think that we're always arguing, can't decide on anything, petty, ect. We have to improve our image. Aside from that, I'm not sure outright advertising ourselves is great, as it comes across as desperate spamming.

6. Stated in 5.

7. I'm not sure how easy this is code-wise, but I would like to have people be able to drop in and just watch Backroom discussions. Don't let them post (maybe a public question period at certain times), just let them see the logic and thought processes going around that lead to these decisions. The problem right now is that the Backrooms just drop a decision on the public, and many people have no idea why, to many it seems random. I think letting people see what bring them to their decisions would go a long way towards transparency.

8. First, I think we need people like you, who are willing to start things, and provoke interesting discussion. Then (seeing as the community's considered divided, and we need to patch it up) we should invite big names from both Melee and Brawl, maybe from 64 too, and that should form a pretty balanced backroom. However, I don't think we should immediately form it, as with the more public backroom we just discussed, we need to choose our members carefully, and if any member ever got booted out (don't even know if that's a thing) then it would be humiliating.

Also, I want to discuss a problem that I think that the 3DS version specifically, will face: Hacking. Since everybody's going to be bringing in their own system and cartridge, I can see people hacking buffs onto their be a potential problem, and I think it's something that we need to be able to detect and defend ourselves against.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Also, I want to discuss a problem that I think that the 3DS version specifically, will face: Hacking.

I wouldn't be too worried about that. The 3DS is suppose to really difficult to hack and Nintendo is using updates to lock out hacks now.

 

[Burning Boom]

I wouldn't be too worried about that. The 3DS is suppose to really difficult to hack and Nintendo is using updates to lock out hacks now.

Thanks, that's nice to hear.

 

[mimgrim]

I wouldn't be too worried about that. The 3DS is suppose to really difficult to hack and Nintendo is using updates to lock out hacks now.

Yea, my poor Action Replay, so fun to use to fudge around with stuff once you beat the game. :C

1. People will be saturated with smash. Think of how many big name tournaments we have that everyone knows about, the numbers are staggering, not to mention the incredible number of smashfests that will pop up when the game comes out. (Brawl used to have stuff in places EVERY weekend and even in some places EVERY DAY O_O ) What do we do so people don't get too much smash and get sick of it never to come back?

Eh, I'm of the mind that there can't be to much "Smash" but people who feel opposite only have themselves to blame. If they get sick of it then they just need to take a small 1 or 2 week brerak from it and then come back, it's their own fault for playing it to much. The rest of the players shouldn't be punished by lack of Smash because a couple of people feel like they are playing it to much. Basically it's upon to the individual player to decide how much Smash stuff they want to attend, if they want to be idiots about it however then it is their prerogative,by never returning to Smash, but the other players shouldn't be punished because of it.

2. People are going to get tired of losing to the same people. Let's face it, we'll have lots of new players eager to come in and prove themselves coming up against our greatest pros who are going to wipe the floor with them and wee'll see the same names topping tournaments everywhere. Why are people going to travel when they know AT BEST they might get something like 5th (which generally means no money). What do we do to try and keep and mentor those players to keep our scene strong?

Again, I feel this is up to the individual player. Don't like losing over and over again? Then get better and practice more, it takes time to get better. If a player feels generous enough to mentor someone that's great, I believe there are some mentoring programs done by some pros on this site even (CTZero's mento program comes to mind) and each character discussion usually have video critique thread to post your videos of you playing and see what you do wrong. Not to mention all the guides on this site, there is plenty of it if you look for it. People just can't be lazy about it, you won't be come a crazy beast over night, well unless you're a werewolf.

3. Misinformation was and still is rampant for Smash. People not knowing things about stages or characters or spreading information that isn't true about various things to the point people believe it without question EVEN THOUGH IT ISN'T TRUE is still happening with things TO THIS DAY. We're going to have a brand new smash where tons of things will be moving around and for a while it's true that things will be fuzzy, but how do we combat this to make sure tons of wrong information isn't spread?

I'll get back to you on this one.

4. Tournaments take FOREVER. How can we try to speed up the process so people don't quit just because they don't want to stay up past midnight and go to work the next day because they entered a smash event?

Well one way to solve the midnight issue is to hold them earlier, but this only really works for the lower scale tournaments. If there are enough set-ups however Round Robin tournaments can actually go faster then Bracket tournaments, but you need enough set ups for it to be effective. Also shorten the time for DQs for people not showing up for their match instead of 15 minutes make it like 5, if they aren't there on time it's their own damn fault or if they aren't willing to stop a friendly or w/e it is still their own damn fault.

5. How can we as a community outreach and advertise to reach potential players outside of our community better then we have in the past (as previously we've done so kinda poorly)?

TOs need to make more fliers for their tournaments, perhaps create a youtube video advertising Smashboards and make it featured, and get more people onto twitter and FB, I'm a hyprocrite on this part since I'll probably never get FB as I dislike it though Twitter might be a different story dunno, and just get players to spread the word.

6. How do we improve how we look to people outside of the FGC? How can we project what an awesome group we are and look respectable so we can attract more attention, more sponsors, and more players and fans?

Get the bickering in the community to stop. Let's face it, the Smash community is rather radical compared to other communities. We can't even decide on which game to make our main game. That issue needs to be solved first.

7. How can we have more transparency at times? Tons of people look to backrooms to learn about matchups, tier lists, recommended rulesets, and a bunch more while others have these feelings like they are a "Smash Illuminati" and have no trust in them at all. How can we make it so people can feel more comfortable with the groups so the things they say and do hold more respect and can have people trust in what they say?

There are always going to be people who hate on "The Man" so to speak. There will also be people who think they know better then "The Man". I can't really think of a way around that. I think more people are fine with those things then what it seems, but I'm not sure.

8. How are we going to form the Wii U and 3DS backrooms? Where do we start and how do we start?

That's up to the higher ups in all honesty.

 

[LiteralGrill]

2. Fortunately, this is a new game, so not as much of old skill will carry over, but even so, this is an issue. I guess we could make a tier list of players (have people enter their names here, we look up their stats, and the community decides, with new players starting at the bottom), and limit tournaments based on that, but that will probably insult people, especially the new players who go in thinking they're hot stuff.

I dunno, a lot of good players picks up the different games and do incedibly well as some basic skill is transferable, but you gave me a great idea there.

Newcomers Tournaments. Tournaments (maybe online) specifically for new people to test the waters and play with players closer to their skill level to get their confidence up and make friends. Sound good?

4. The 3DS version can help with that especially, as everyone has their own system and game, therefore we're not dealing with a limited amount of setups. Heck, if we did Single elimination, we could do all of the matches in a round at the same time, but that sounds a bit extreme.

I'm thinking Swiss brackets. AlphaZealot suggested it and I made a whole thread about it even. It wouldn't work for Wii U, but this is one case where I do agree 3DS has some serious advantages.

7. I'm not sure how easy this is code-wise, but I would like to have people be able to drop in and just watch Backroom discussions. Don't let them post (maybe a public question period at certain times), just let them see the logic and thought processes going around that lead to these decisions. The problem right now is that the Backrooms just drop a decision on the public, and many people have no idea why, to many it seems random. I think letting people see what bring them to their decisions would go a long way towards transparency.

That would actually be really awesome if people could watch the discussions so when announcements where made they could provide input or even talk to the members to discuss what they are saying. The only problem may be coding but it'd be seriously worth doing.

8. First, I think we need people like you, who are willing to start things, and provoke interesting discussion. Then (seeing as the community's considered divided, and we need to patch it up) we should invite big names from both Melee and Brawl, maybe from 64 too, and that should form a pretty balanced backroom. However, I don't think we should immediately form it, as with the more public backroom we just discussed, we need to choose our members carefully, and if any member ever got booted out (don't even know if that's a thing) then it would be humiliating.

Is that a nomination?

Thanks for the compliment, I thought it was mentioned at some point they were just going to take all the Brawl people and make them be the new backroom. I hope they at least consider giving us one just for 3DS even with their not being huge differences so that us people playing with a different format, different stages, and probably other things can work on our own decisions.

But people do get kicked out of the backroom or quit, I do think something needs to be in place to get rid of people who aren't contributing at least though seeing as how it's supposed to be a place to do work for the better of the game.

If a player feels generous enough to mentor someone that's great, I believe there are some mentoring programs done by some pros on this site even (CTZero's mento program comes to mind)

I'd love to see more mentor programs like that too, it'd be rather awesome. Somebody should try to organize such things when the game comes out. Even helping someone discover who they should main and explaining different skills would be useful.

Also shorten the time for DQs for people not showing up for their match instead of 15 minutes make it like 5, if they aren't there on time it's their own damn fault or if they aren't willing to stop a friendly or w/e it is still their own damn fault.

When I did it for PSASBR I had it at 10 minutes, but there were stupid circumstances with that game (no timer and being crazy slow at times made some matches go for over and half hour for a 3 stock game, so like 1 and a half hour sets every set near the end and people needed to eat and such)

I agree the times should be shortened. I like friendlies as much as the next guy, but tournaments need to move on. If we do use Swiss brackets on the 3DS people would get more matches and would cut back on that quite a bit which would be awesome, plus you can literally slot the amount of time between rounds so people KNOW when they'll have to play and not start a match when they shouldn't.

Get the bickering in the community to stop. Let's face it, the Smash community is rather radical compared to other communities. We can't even decide on which game to make our main game. That issue needs to be solved first.

No more bickering would be amazing I agree and we really could use it to make us look better as a community.

 

[TimeSmash]

1. People will be saturated with smash. Think of how many big name tournaments we have that everyone knows about, the numbers are staggering, not to mention the incredible number of smashfests that will pop up when the game comes out. (Brawl used to have stuff in places EVERY weekend and even in some places EVERY DAY O_O ) What do we do so people don't get too much smash and get sick of it never to come back?

This is something that's a little out of our power, because the world will continue to play Smash or not, albeit somewhat less competitively if this forum is involved and if we got other big name tournaments involved, like Apex and Evo. You would have to have something like a Smash PR group that decided when official tournaments would be held, come up with rules and legality (which will be difficult at the games' release) to make sure people get used to tournament play. But if people decide to quit Smash and not come back, that's more on them. A final note I would say is that people, especially on this forum since we are the major representative for competitive Smash, is to generally not be a **** to other people.

2. People are going to get tired of losing to the same people. Let's face it, we'll have lots of new players eager to come in and prove themselves coming up against our greatest pros who are going to wipe the floor with them and wee'll see the same names topping tournaments everywhere. Why are people going to travel when they know AT BEST they might get something like 5th (which generally means no money). What do we do to try and keep and mentor those players to keep our scene strong?

This is a great point because losing is frustrating, even if you are humbled by it. I would suggest immediately stickying things on both versions forums that are basics of tournament play and describe all the terms and glitches that are discovered, updating these things over time. Melee had some AMAZING threads about this and sometimes they were slightly difficult to find, so make the threads easier to find. Q & A threads are always great, and these boards have been generous with them

3. Misinformation was and still is rampant for Smash. People not knowing things about stages or characters or spreading information that isn't true about various things to the point people believe it without question EVEN THOUGH IT ISN'T TRUE is still happening with things TO THIS DAY. We're going to have a brand new smash where tons of things will be moving around and for a while it's true that things will be fuzzy, but how do we combat this to make sure tons of wrong information isn't spread?

See above. The forums could further talk about stages in depth (a bit like Grim Tuesday's thread on stage legality in Brawl, can find the link but I do know it is present in the Reevaluation of Stage Hazards thread. Also, please refer people to SmashWiki as that site is a plethora of information that is usually up to date and true; let's not forget those people work just as hard on that wikia, which is incredibly polished for the most part, and a huge help to newcomers.

4. Tournaments take FOREVER. How can we try to speed up the process so people don't quit just because they don't want to stay up past midnight and go to work the next day because they entered a smash event?

You would have to reevaluate a lot of things like time limits, stalling rules, and stock limits for one. This in itself would be a whole new thread discussion though. And maybe express in tournament postings that people should expect to stay overnight or something of the like . Maybe even have a estimated time or something. Planning tournaments on college breaks, long weekends, holiday weeks/ends seems to be beneficial.

5. How can we as a community outreach and advertise to reach potential players outside of our community better then we have in the past (as previously we've done so kinda poorly)?

SOCIAL MEDIA. Again, see what I said about Smash PR, which possibly could lead to its own thread as well if the idea seriously gained momentum and volunteers. Obviously people who know how to use Facebook at the very least are needed, and those who use things like Tumblr, Twitter, Pinterest (?), and Reddit would be great. We're already seeing some usage of Twitch here, which is great. Perhaps [by using the hypothetical PR team, possibly] communicate with HR reps of things like G4, IGN, Gamestop, Game Craze (?) and even Best Buy. PLEASE NOT WAL-MART EVER thanks.

6. How do we improve how we look to people outside of the FGC? How can we project what an awesome group we are and look respectable so we can attract more attention, more sponsors, and more players and fans?

Again, social media has some interplay here. A neat idea is having a Kickstarter to improve our advertising and help fund tournaments, and polish these boards a bit and things like SmashWiki. Not really sure on this, these are just ideas.

7. How can we have more transparency at times? Tons of people look to backrooms to learn about matchups, tier lists, recommended rulesets, and a bunch more while others have these feelings like they are a "Smash Illuminati" and have no trust in them at all. How can we make it so people can feel more comfortable with the groups so the things they say and do hold more respect and can have people trust in what they say?

Perhaps allow more insight as to what the BR is posting, which seems ludicrous to some, but that's all I can think of. We should be allowed to at least look at what they post to some degree, definitely ban comments however.

8. How are we going to form the Wii U and 3DS backrooms? Where do we start and how do we start?

Probably five or so months prior to the game launch. You would have to file for candidates to fill these positions ,or granfather in ther BRoomers from Melle Brawl and 64.

- - -These are just my opinions. Feel free to support or argue them@!

 

[Diddy Kong]

People will always abuse the game physics to win. Nothing to be done about it, besides hope for a good game and a balanced set of characters.

 

[LiteralGrill]

This is a great point because losing is frustrating, even if you are humbled by it. I would suggest immediately stickying things on both versions forums that are basics of tournament play and describe all the terms and glitches that are discovered, updating these things over time. Melee had some AMAZING threads about this and sometimes they were slightly difficult to find, so make the threads easier to find. Q & A threads are always great, and these boards have been generous with them

I agree with this SO much. Keep them easy to find and well updated (something not all threads do, a lot of stuff is outdated in Brawl especially like things from back in 2008 still ) will be a huge boon.

See above. The forums could further talk about stages in depth (a bit like Grim Tuesday's thread on stage legality in Brawl, can find the link but I do know it is present in the Reevaluation of Stage Hazards thread. Also, please refer people to SmashWiki as that site is a plethora of information that is usually up to date and true; let's not forget those people work just as hard on that wikia, which is incredibly polished for the most part, and a huge help to newcomers.

The wikia has been getting a cool little update in terms of looks too I noticed, VERY snazzy. I intend on personally making a stagelist section for the 3DS so we'll have that covered, it'll be up to various character mains and such to work for their characters. We still don't know of the 3DS will get it's own character forums (I sure hope it does) so we'll just have to make sure things get done!

You would have to reevaluate a lot of things like time limits, stalling rules, and stock limits for one. This in itself would be a whole new thread discussion though.

It's true, and it's something we can't entirely decide on till the game comes out, but we'll hopefully hop right on it!

Again, social media has some interplay here. A neat idea is having a Kickstarter to improve our advertising and help fund tournaments, and polish these boards a bit and things like SmashWiki. Not really sure on this, these are just ideas.

Kickstarter is a cool concept, I'll have to think about that one. Probably have to do Indiegogo though just because of how it's structured. Still a fascinating idea!

 

[Lotusclaw8]

Hey, I'm sorry that I MUST be sounding like a total nooblet (because I am) but what is this whole backroom thing?

 

[Burning Boom]

Hey, I'm sorry that I MUST be sounding like a total nooblet (because I am) but what is this whole backroom thing?

They basically are put in charge of the community/meta-game. They're a group of pre-selected people (generally very knowledgable on the game in question) and they discuss things, and make rules, make decisions, create the tier lists, etc.

 

[TopTierPichu]

isnt it a bit early to be discussing the Broom?

 

[TimeSmash]

isnt it a bit early to be discussing the Broom?

Yes and no. It might be a good idea to discuss it so people who aren't in it can have more of an idea what exactly goes on in there, without exactly contributing. I feel like people who are elected in the BRoom are people who know Smash well, and thus should make appropriate decisions based on their knowledge. However, I feel like the arguments behind those decisions should be allowed to the general public.

 

[TopTierPichu]

who would even get selected for Smash 4 Backroom if nobody else has played the game?

 

[TimeSmash]

I would bet it would be due to previous experience on past Smash games. That being said, the opposite could also happen, where Smash 4 is out for a couple months and a metagame and tier list starts to get established, and skilled players would be elected into it. I'm not sure how the people of the BRoom for Brawl got elected, so I can't really say either way.

In short, it could go either way haha. This is me just speculating

 

[guedes the brawler]

this is actually more for the wii u version, but it seems on-topic enough: Apparently all the controller schemes for that game are wireless, and it causes some problems when you have a big number of those close by. how are we going to deal with that?

 

[TopTierPichu]

this is actually more for the wii u version, but it seems on-topic enough: Apparently all the controller schemes for that game are wireless, and it causes some problems when you have a big number of those close by. how are we going to deal with that?

just have the systems spread out a bit more would be a reasonable choice, as well as a make shift wall would help

 

[smashbro29]

Not concerned about the 3ds version. At best it'll be good for practicing if I'm not home.