Community Equipment & Powersaves Discussion

[DunnoBro]

As some of you may be aware, Datel Powersaves have begun making equipment codes. It seems like they have mostly free reign over stats (no negatives, +200 to all stat type badges) and like they're willing to listen to smashers about what to put in. Obviously though, they don't want to work off the word of a single user who might be biased/uninformed so I thought some discussion was called for.

The main topics are the following:

• Potential applications of equipment
  
• Equipment ability that should be ignored completely
• Where/How to allocate stats on equipment. (Plus X Minus Y, have no effect, or have positive/negative effect only if possible)
• Etc.

Abilities to IGNORE:

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All Item/Food Related Abilities
Sudden Death Related
HP percent Related
Critical Hit/Prone

What to FOCUS ON:

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Smooth Lander
Dodgy Dodger/Crash Lander
Hard Braker
Tough/Hasty Edge
Jumps (Hi/Low, Thistle/Anchor etc. )
Specific speed (Glides, Walking Speed, Running, etc)
Regular Badges Or negative abilities (For pure stat boosts. What numbers to use, etc)

Characters with well documented flaws, shortcomings, or otherwise interesting interaction with equipment.

Misc. Stuff

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I believe they can edit badges to have specific abilities, so it'd be extremely easy to just powersave in badges that work for the entire cast as opposed to needing to apply it over every specific bit of equipment.

If we ever determine proper sets/equipment, it shouldn't be too hard to spread them. In addition to a TO needing only one powersave + PC to apply the code to pretty much everyone at the tournament, there will also be the option between the 3ds and Wii u version to import fighters. Customs -and- equipment. So they wouldn't even need a powersave themselves to spread the approved sets around.

If we determine only a few or even one character should have an ability, I suggest making it a part more specific to that character.

I think there's potential in equipment as they are now to deliver a P:M or other custom smash experience. My intent however IS NOT TO CHANGE ANYTHING ANYTIME SOON. But rather just get the ball rolling for if/when we do decide some things need to change.

However, I also believe the only way we could ever reasonably work equipment in to competitive smash is with templates, and being conservative as possible. We don't have the tools for an entire overhaul, but I do believe we can tweak the base level a bit.

I.e having as few as one to none approved equipment for certain characters. And for good reason. Like smooth Lander to Falco for SHL back, Tough/Hasty Edge to characters planking becomes an issue on, Dodgy dodger/crash lander if we want more speed/combos. Specific stat boosts if we determine a character needs it. Stuff like that.

For now though, I'd like to focus on very general tweaks for powersave to work in. Please refer to Cornstalk's equipment data thread when discussing desired effect via stat changes.

But I was wondering if anyone has an issue with this list, if possible:
(Refer to this effect list for clarification)

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Smooth Lander Badge

Hard Braker Badge

Leaper Badge

Thistle/Anchor Jump badge

Tough Edge Badge

Dodgy Dodger Badge

Crash Lander Badge

All +0-0, or made to cancel each other out.

Essentially, all these abilities are fairly minor tweaks that I feel should be tested. (The last three are negative effects to try and make up for the lack of hitstun but taking some of the defensive tools away. If this just makes the game more stressful or actually faster/combocentric would be what to test for with other people with this equipment.

If this list appeals to you, I think we could gain a lot of traction by requesting these codes from datel. Please link this thread in the request form so they know to keep an eye on us. I think testing with these abilities is the key, though I have heard some issues with hacked equipment and playing online.

 

[Cornstalk]

As someone who is sick of game after game basically forcing me to battle a random number generator for what I'm after, this news gives me hope.

I would like to see all of the special properties equipment can have be on stat free items.

So Smooth Lander would be on a +0 speed / -0 attack piece of a equipment.

That way we can enjoy the more interesting changes, both tournament friendly and not, without messing with the characters core stat numbers.


With stats in mind, increments of 5 or 10 (negative and positive) with no opposing modifier would be nice.
For example, a tournament that wanted to do 4 stock in 8 minutes could have players put on a -20 to -30 defense piece (with no pluses on it). This will increase damage slightly and knockback considerably, meaning KO's could occur more in the 80-100 range instead of some of the campier matches running to 150+.

 

[DunnoBro]

Apparently trying to use the +200 to all badge from datel gets you booted from online. Hopefully it's just the absurd stats and only positives in all three stats when the game only lets it effect two, and not the fact they're hacked necessarily. I hope there isn't a super strict check for equipment beyond stats.

No word if they're less ridiculous badges result in a boot or not yet.

Even just disallowing badges with smooth lander severely complicates things. (Datel would need to make dozens of codes instead of 3-5) So I really hope the check is for stats and not much beyond that.

At minimum I think we should ask them for a +0-0 smooth lander badge code. See if that works, then test on some equipment it can actually go on if not. Smooth lander is the big one.

 

[Rakurai]

Apparently trying to use the +200 to all badge from datel gets you booted from online. Hopefully it's just the absurd stats and only positives in all three stats when the game only lets it effect two, and not the fact they're hacked necessarily. I hope there isn't a super strict check for equipment beyond stats.

Thank goodness for that. I was worried people would actually be able to get away with cheating.

In any case, it would be be very simple for them to set up checks to determine whether or not your equipment is using illegal stat spreads, as there's a strictly defined range of positive/negative stats each piece of gear is capable of having based on what abilities it has.

I'd be surprised if gear with no stats was able to pass the checks.

 

[DunnoBro]

Thank goodness for that. I was worried people would actually be able to get away with cheating.

In nay case, I wouldn't be surprised if they're able to simply know whether or not your equipment is using illegal stat spreads, as there's strictly defined range of stats each piece of gear is capable of having based on what abilities it has and such.

We you can only use equipment with friends, I don't think it'd be a big deal cause it'd be obvious as hell and they can just leave if their friend is being a jerk =p

But yea, there's definitely a way stats are supposed to be set on equipment. An few alternate routes in the event we can't bypass those checks:

1: Find a proper stat allocation > Put it on a badge > If it doesn't work, put it on equipment it's confirmed to be on(preferably those that can go on as many chars as possible to cut down on work > Create a code that blocks stat changes from equipment.

It might suck for pure stat buffs, though really effects should be enough to pinpoint issues. The only one who comes to mind which could use a pure overall speed buff is ganondorf, but we can work around that.

2: Find a way to make a "custom always on" code. Or "use custom character slot X" code to bypass the regular "custom on/off" ingame, which hopefully lets us bypass the check.

3: Hope datel makes powersaves opensource

 

[Rakurai]

I was more concerned about people using hacked gear to get high scores in Classic and Smash Run.

Which I suppose is actually possible still, but if they have to go through the hassle of deleting their equipment every time they want to connect to the internet, they might just not want to bother.

I seriously doubt points 1 and 2 will ever happen, though, as they fall into the realm of things that can't be changed by simply editing save data and would require real time data modification like the sort a typical AR would provide (And the 3DS' security basically destroyed any chance one of those will ever exist again).

 

[Cornstalk]

I wonder how they'll handle the Wii U's save file. Brawl under normal circumstances wouldn't let you copy to an SD card, but eventually they found a way around that. If the Wii U Smash lets you put your save on any kind of external device, then it could end up being so simple and tweaking some hexadecimal values.

From what the 54 facts implied about linking the systems, the custom set itself could at least be sent from the 3DS to the Wii U. Hopefully it would go both ways. Meaning you wouldn't necessarily be able to change it on the fly, but at least you could use a Wii U version to send your custom set to your 3DS. At least in theory...

There's also the possibility of finding a way to fake the broadcast to send the data too. I recall Pokemon B&W and I think B&2 had a few mobile apps or web sites that pretended to be another DS and could send you specifically created Pokemon. There was even a big list of Pokemon set-ups that would be accepted as legit by some of the cheat checks.


So even if Datel doesn't open source their stuff (which I assume they won't because of business and making sure kids don't brick their cartridges... because who wants to deal with angry ignorant parents?) we have a few potential sources that may come available in the near future.



But more on point...

• Smooth Lander
• Lateral Air Speed
• Run speed
• Walk Speed
• Jump Height (good and bad)

Those 5 are top of my personal list for the pieces that can have the biggest impact on the game, as they could really assist the approach game without changing any of the launch physics. Well, lateral air movement would make recovery easier. But I don't see it having a huge impact outside of a handful of characters (would anyone really complain about Ganon being a little harder to gimp?). Most have pretty ridiculous recoveries now anyway.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think more lateral air speed would make gimping easier and harder. Characters will be better at doing it, but also better at getting back. Personally I don't think it'll help their recoveries too much though. It will however enable combos/follow-ups.

 

[Cornstalk]

What's interesting is Speed (the stat change) already handles a lot of the features we want the special stat for.

So it does make you move left and right faster, reduce landing lag, increase your jump height, etc. The current drawback is that it does EVERYTHING.

There are several characters I'd like to be able to travel through the air faster. But at the same time, I don't necessarily want them to jump higher.

For me, it's Wii Fit trainer. I'd actually like to DECREASE his short hop height (decrease ground jumping) while improving travel speed (lateral air movement) and reducing landing lag (smooth lander). If I could apply those 3 changes without actually screwing with the core stats of the character like weight/launchability, damage taken, damage dealt, and launch power I would be a happy camper.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

The +200 stat badges are unable to be transferred to the Wii U. It detects a save abnormality.

 

[Rakurai]

The +200 stat badges are unable to be transferred to the Wii U. It detects a save abnormality.

Hooray. So no cheating on the Wii U version.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

Is there a code that gives all equipment? So far I haven't found 1 at all. Just want to get all equipment for all characters.

 

[Rakurai]

No. There's a near infinite amount of possible equipment combinations, plus their stats are randomized, as well.

Also, all of the codes provided are only for illegal equipment that can't actually be obtained through normal means and will result in you being denied WiFi access until they're removed, because Smash 4's hack checks are actually good.

 

[W.A.C.]

Smooth Lander and Lateral Air Speed equipment definitely sound like the two equipments worth focusing on the most, especially the latter. ****ing hate how running speed isn't carried into jumps with this game and Brawl. As for a third equipment, it would depend on which one improves the game the most. Anchor Jump looks like it could fit that build, but I would have to try it for myself.

 

[Phoenix502]

boy, this thread didn't get much discussion...

as for my two cents, I've already grown interested in using Smooth Lander and Anchor Jumper, mainly to subvert Heavy Smash's drawback on certain fighters recoveries.

increasing Lateral air speed feels like it's very debatable, though, predominantly because the fighters that folks want this for are more speed based... with little thought put whatsoever on those with more average running speed or less, such as ganondorf. increasing lateral speed is just placing a placebo effect for faster fighters, while notably buffing the slower heavyweights.

something else noticed wasn't mentioned is the question of whether or not we should implement one of each effect or stack it. every effect can be boosted by stacking a second one in the build, whether or not it's appropriate or not, I've not gotten any response from among my friends... who are mostly Melee and PM players anyways.